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00:00:00
there is always I am Adam arm wrecked and over there is the healthy, wealthy and wise Andy Mackiewicz feeling good.
00:00:07
Yankees gotta win big win last night.
00:00:09
So hopefully there's some good New York sports vibes heading to the Giants on Sunday.
00:00:15
You better believe it.
00:00:16
We probably should have touched base doing a lot of preparation for this episode.
00:00:20
Obviously, a lot of different things we want to touch on for the Giants in this midweek.
00:00:23
I'm trying Thio, Let's bring it back down.
00:00:26
Let's go ahead and level ourselves back off.
00:00:27
Right? Um, but I could have taken a look at just the visual that I was putting out there for SportsCastr.
00:00:33
This is not Don't worry about me, boys.
00:00:36
We're going to be fine.
00:00:37
I am not vain in the slightest Let's do the thing that we do here before we dive in Thio Ah, couple of news and notes around the team and then also some real questions that we have.
00:00:49
And we're concerned, I guess you'd say, as a lot of Giants fans are right now and some changes may in fact be coming too big blue.
00:00:56
But as we did last week and will be a little bit of a rolling theme here Wednesday. Andy.
00:01:01
It's the This day in history segment of the one giant podcast.
00:01:05
And I didn't go all the way back to the 19 thirties for this one.
00:01:08
You should have a frame of reference here this day.
00:01:12
In 2007 the Giants had a victory in their division.
00:01:19
Do you know who that was against? Mm, That is.
00:01:23
I'll give you good odds.
00:01:25
I'm giving you good odds here.
00:01:26
That is a good one.
00:01:27
I'm gonna go with the Philadelphia Eagles, sir. You are correct.
00:01:32
16 to 13 in a game where Eli Manning lit it up for 135 passing yards.
00:01:38
This was win number two, and what would be their six game win streak inside of that nine and seven season, obviously, up and down with the back end.
00:01:45
But then they went on that great wild card run in the playoffs to win a championship under one loved, beloved and missed Thomas Coughlin.
00:01:55
So we we way hopefully bring back a positive memory to the people before we turn our attention over to the current New York football Giants roster and the current New York football Giants quarterback.
00:02:06
Let's keep those positive vibes going, Andy, where I tell you that maybe you don't know this, but Daniel Jones is actually in fantastic early career company.
00:02:16
Do you have any Any any inclination as to why this guy might be might be really feeling pretty good about himself right now, as we look towards week for maybe because the Giants were getting wins in 2007 scoring 16 points a game, and that's right around what they're averaging right now.
00:02:31
It could that be it.
00:02:32
Tragically, that would only lead toe one win this season because they've only actually gotten there once at 16 points.
00:02:37
In spite of that margin, the big number there was three for the Philadelphia Eagles.
00:02:41
No, listen for whatever it's worth.
00:02:43
And we are fans of Daniel Jones.
00:02:45
We still believe in him.
00:02:46
Obviously, we've been quarterbacks and otherwise pretty consistent with our approach of You want to give players an opportunity to learn to grow and get better, especially the quarterback position.
00:02:57
You know they're gonna take their lumps.
00:02:58
So just for sake of argument, let's remember friends that Peyton Manning when three and 13 in his rookie season as an NFL quarterback.
00:03:06
There are several other ones who on Lee had three or fewer wins over there, 1st 15 starts.
00:03:12
And that's you know we're in that wheelhouse right now for Daniel Jones that include Pro Football Hall of Famers Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Folks, Fran Tarkenton and Bart Starr, plus bonus names like Vinny Testaverde and Archie Manning.
00:03:27
So you know you can.
00:03:30
You can say that somewhere in that spectrum, Daniel Jones may lie.
00:03:34
But the good news is, or maybe at least you know, we We see this from quarterbacks.
00:03:37
We see this around the league, right? Not every first start of the season.
00:03:41
Every 16 games.
00:03:42
Sample sizes.
00:03:43
Patrick Mahomes.
00:03:44
There's going to be a spectrum here.
00:03:45
And while the turnovers have been concerning for Jones, you can always say, Hey, this is season number one right now for him after those first three games because he came in late last year in his rookie season.
00:03:57
And as this year moves along, let's start to see the progression.
00:04:00
And let's continue to look for signs that he's showing growth and continue to could be the franchise quarterback for the Giants.
00:04:06
Well, I think one interesting note on all of that is teams don't let you lose that many games unless they see some something from you that they think that they can build on.
00:04:16
You know, some of these other quarterbacks that air Young either come in halfway through their rookie season.
00:04:21
You know, they kind of protect them and make them sit for quite a while.
00:04:24
You know, Daniel Jones has, you know, he sat for the first two games that then came out right after, um, the Dallas Cowboys game.
00:04:31
You know, it says that the the coaching staff and the G M and the organization have faith in Daniel Jones and that the wins and losses air not directly attributed to him and that eventually they think he has the ability to turn it around with more experience and potentially mawr weapons and him or quality, you know, just across the board on this team.
00:04:52
Yeah, and that's the hard part, just in general, around the NFL new mentality of saying you know what we can afford or we choose to now because the college game has gotten closer closer to the pro level in terms of style.
00:05:04
We're gonna throw these guys right in.
00:05:05
So you have to, You would think still, leave that wiggle room of saying, Well, if you didn't play for your first year, how would that mitigate some of those mistakes that you made as you start off your career? So listen, Silver Lining, friends.
00:05:17
Something to think about.
00:05:18
We continue to be excited about what Daniel Jones could grow into as we play close to pay close attention to what he does over the next.
00:05:25
You know, 13 games for the New York Giants.
00:05:27
So it still does.
00:05:28
Of course, it is subject to change.
00:05:30
Based on what we see on the field, Let's turn our attention.
00:05:34
And, you know, I was I was just gonna say and and, you know, the Giants were committed to Daniel Jones for for at least the rest of the year, having someone like Colt.
00:05:43
Colt McCoy, a veteran leader behind him.
00:05:44
It's not like they're looking.
00:05:45
You know Daniel Jones looking over a shoulder, saying, You know who's gonna replace me if I fumble the ball again? The Giants are invested in Daniel Jones, at least through the end of this year.
00:05:53
Well, by the way, I'll touch back on this.
00:05:55
Remember that conversation around Josh Rosen? He's out there in the Giants.
00:05:59
Take a flyer on them.
00:06:00
This is the exact reason why you wouldn't want him on the roster.
00:06:02
If if you believe in Daniel Jones and you want to be your quarterback because Owen three, the fumble issues, the turnover issues overall still exists there.
00:06:10
The offensive line, all these different things, all the all the issues that the Giants are facing right now.
00:06:14
This would be the perfect time for a certain segment of the fan base to say, Well, come on, put in Josh Rosen.
00:06:19
Let's see if you could give you a spark and then you effectively end the New York football giant career of Daniel Jones.
00:06:24
And you may also effectively not have a career for Josh Rosen and go okay, moving on friends.
00:06:31
So that's I think, Why, why you hesitate to make moves like that when you see Ah, a name that maybe sounds bigger, that it actually is now.
00:06:40
Yeah, but we're not.
00:06:41
We're not a junior varsity team here.
00:06:43
We don't We don't give out, you know, awards Just because you're good enough, Thio start.
00:06:49
But there's not someone behind you that's competitive enough or has enough upside to be able to participate in the next game that you're playing like I want the best talent we can get.
00:06:58
If Daniel Jones ends up not being the guy, and we keep talking about how we do still believe in Daniel Jones, we have faith in Daniel Jones.
00:07:05
I'm okay with bringing in competition.
00:07:07
You know, Iron sharpens iron Adam.
00:07:09
I want the best players, the ones that have the most upside to come in and compete with each other.
00:07:14
And if we're just not gonna sign guys because we're worried like, Oh, we may have too many options on the bench to, like, test out like that to me would be the wrong reason to not sign someone.
00:07:24
I do understand that we wanna have faith in Daniel Jones, and maybe this gives him a longer leash because Colt McCoy is that better and back up.
00:07:30
But I'm at this point.
00:07:32
I'm down with bring in as much talent as we can get on this roster because we are lacking depth at many of our positions.
00:07:41
Iron sharpens iron and rubbing two sticks together could start a fire.
00:07:44
That would be my That's my That's my response in concern of a move like that.
00:07:48
Nevertheless, though, I think it's valid what you're saying, and I do understand the idea of competition.
00:07:52
Let's switch gears here and talk about some of the roster moves.
00:07:56
The things that were done here.
00:07:58
Excuse me.
00:07:59
Over the course of this past week, obviously, the waiver wire order reset after Week three, the Giants found them in the second position.
00:08:05
Before we touch on that, we do mention here that, obviously Jabrill Peppers left that game suffered a low ankle sprain, looked to be potentially more severe.
00:08:14
When he first left the game, Love replaced him.
00:08:17
All indications are he should be in line to play this weekend against the Rams and even if not, if they hold them out for caution, he should be back Week five against the Dallas Cowboys, ready to roll.
00:08:28
So dodging a bullet there and what has been obviously an injury and losing players up and down for the Giants, they're gonna keep peppers hopefully healthier for the remainder off this season.
00:08:38
The other areas that we look at of course, or what the Giants did, both on the practice squad and then on the main team.
00:08:44
First footnote over on the practice squad is that they brought in ah, veteran in running back Alfred Morris to the practice squad.
00:08:51
Now there's a couple of moves that were made in conjunction with that.
00:08:54
But where do you stand on a move like this, Andy? Things excite you.
00:08:59
Does this feel like a waste of a move? Because I think that's really the two sides of the coin.
00:09:05
Are Is this a quality veteran? You're adding in there? What does it mean for some of the other guys that are up there? Mainly Wayne Goldman, I would say.
00:09:12
And what does it mean for some of the practice squad players? Does it speak to the state of the franchise? If I were to come out and say I was excited about signing a 31 year old running back to the practice squad, I mean, let's just let's just call a spade a spade there.
00:09:27
I am not excited about this.
00:09:29
I'm kind of indifferent about it.
00:09:31
I mean, there's a couple different ways that you could think about it one, I think, um, you know, we talked a little bit about this earlier.
00:09:38
I think it just shows that the Giants are looking to compete, and they want to be able to fill the roster accordingly, so that that's kind of the first thing that I think about.
00:09:45
The second thing is, I think they're also creating contingency plans.
00:09:49
Toe have a running back that can run between the tackles.
00:09:52
And so, to your point, if Devonta Freeman doesn't look good or Devonta, Freeman gets nicked up.
00:09:57
Or even when Goldman gets injured, they wanna be ableto have a veteran leader that can step in right away.
00:10:03
Can can understand how to get you three or four yards when we need it.
00:10:06
And so for me, this this is kind of one of those.
00:10:09
Well, okay, it's just a little bit of depth.
00:10:11
Of course, I'd like a younger running back with upside, but we're trying to compete.
00:10:15
We're trying to make sure that we have a competent running game for the next 13 games and not necessarily think well, who could be the third string running back next year behind Se****, Barkley and Dion Lewis? And that's what you saw around social media about e think the commentary of this is everything that's wrong with the Giants franchise bringing Alfred Morris to the practice squad as opposed to bringing back Javon Leak.
00:10:36
Now we had talked about Leak, and we thought we were excited about him interested to see what he could have done.
00:10:40
But I don't look at a guy who's not currently on the roster as be you know, if no other team was looking to scoop up Javon Leak, even on to the practice squad.
00:10:50
That tells you a lot about that.
00:10:51
Players.
00:10:52
Well, it doesn't mean doesn't have potential, but it just means that he's no more valuable than any other commodities that you may have down on the practice squad.
00:10:58
And when you talk about Morris, you think back.
00:11:00
Listen, he only played a 31 on Lee had one game appearance last year for Arizona.
00:11:06
Nothing really doing there, but the year prior you talk about appearing in 12 games, starting one still gave you 3.
00:11:11
9 yards per carry.
00:11:13
He's a career 4.
00:11:14
3 yards per carry guy, to your point, he's a between the tackles.
00:11:17
Guayas Well, like I don't want to say I don't want I don't wanna get over excited about it.
00:11:23
But I think that there is value in this and to your to your other point about the Giants.
00:11:28
Joe Judge.
00:11:29
They want to stay competitive here.
00:11:30
And this is something that I've mentioned before that I have to adjust personally about this season.
00:11:34
I came in saying, I want all the young guys to play.
00:11:36
I want them to take their lumps.
00:11:38
I want us to develop and grow.
00:11:39
You start to lose.
00:11:40
Players threw off the field issues through opt outs, etcetera, and it changes the mentality.
00:11:45
And you're seeing at least that that this coaching staff and this organization, they're trying to be competitive and sometimes veteran presence.
00:11:54
It does help in those small margin areas, and maybe that's what Morris is going to be, even if it is just solely on the practice squad.
00:12:00
Maybe he's only there for a couple of weeks and he gets cut like we don't know what that's gonna look like, but I'm OK taking fliers on a veteran player.
00:12:07
Yeah, and I think the giant fans forget what the expectations were coming into this year.
00:12:11
We weren't supposed to be a great team, so we wanted to develop young talent.
00:12:14
And then we see what happens when when we put young talent out there like, you know, Andrew Thomas, like some of our younger players like Darnay Holmes, and you kind of see the lumps that they're taking.
00:12:24
And now we're like, Well, we stink.
00:12:25
We're we're not competitive.
00:12:27
We were, you know, were so far away.
00:12:28
It's like, Well, you wanted these guys to get the reps.
00:12:31
You knew that they weren't necessarily the veteran.
00:12:33
You know, uh, people like someone like Logan Ryan is that that comes in and steps in and can compete right away, So we can't really have it both ways.
00:12:40
I know we'd love to be able to develop young talent while still competing, but it's that delicate balance you bring in.
00:12:45
Sometimes a guy like Alfred Morris to solidify the back end of your practice squad and people are up in arms saying that this is the state of the franchise, right? Like he's like he's like that, you know, he's assigning.
00:12:56
That's, you know, in break, you know, Brick glass.
00:13:00
If emergency happens here right, like uh, to me, it's It's not a big deal.
00:13:04
It's just adding depth.
00:13:05
We can move past Alfred Morris, and we can start talking about some of the other signings that the Giants had.
00:13:13
Yes, and the biggest one that happened this week because of their place in that waiver wire order.
00:13:18
They were that they were able to sign cornerback.
00:13:21
Uh, that's going to be Excuse me as I lose my place here.
00:13:24
Madre Harper off of the Raiders practice squad now.
00:13:27
The reason why it may feel a little bit even more significant than you first think is because the Giants actually offered him one a $25,000 signing bonus in order to lower him away from the Las Vegas Raiders and then, on top of which he is being brought into the active 53 man roster.
00:13:43
So at 6 ft two, running a 442 40 out of college, he offers a little bit of size and length for the Giants, potentially on the outside.
00:13:51
And I'm not.
00:13:52
I'm not over hyping this one either, but what you are seeing is the Giants are still actively searching for the answer.
00:13:57
In terms of the combination of players that can complete their secondary.
00:14:01
And, you know you can run these guys out for to your point about Bradbury.
00:14:04
He's played 100% of the snaps the first three weeks.
00:14:06
You want Mawr guys that are playing Ah, higher rep Total as opposed Thio parsing them out and trying to mismatch throughout the game.
00:14:13
Well, so the thing with mantra Harper is he has theater lettuces, Um, that you love to see.
00:14:18
He's 61 he ran a 441 40 during his pro day.
00:14:24
Um, and the thing that worries me and I won't get too bent out of shape about this, Adam, is, you know, we talk about some of the issues that some of the players that we have drafted have had in the past.
00:14:36
You know? You look at DeAndre Baker.
00:14:38
There was some red flags coming out of college about him being lazy or him, you know, not showing up the practices or doing some of those different things.
00:14:45
You know, Madre Harper went undrafted because he got drafted out of Southern Illinois and in 2017 he was kicked off the Oklahoma State team, and, uh, you know Mike Van Gundy or Mike Gundy? Sorry, uh, came out and basically said, Yeah, he violated team rules.
00:15:02
He stepped out of our culture a little bit, and unfortunately, we have to make tough decisions.
00:15:07
And so it, you know, because we're not giving up too much here in terms of assets where we traded up to take DeAndre Baker in the first round.
00:15:14
It's not, you know, a criminally it's not criminal offense or an indictment on Dave Gettleman to be able to bring someone in like this.
00:15:20
But again, it's It's just another noteworthy thing to say.
00:15:23
There are question marks, and maybe that's why this guy has fallen.
00:15:26
Now can the Giants, as an organization, kind of put their hands around them and say, Hey, maybe we can kind of nurture you know that out of you to be able to get that athleticism on the field on game day.
00:15:36
But it's just a just a side note that I, I think, is worth pointing out when we just lost a 6 ft one cornerback with some issues off the field.
00:15:47
Yeah, I know, I agree with you right, and it's easier to take a flyer on a guy that maybe has some, as they like to say, red flags for himself because it's just bring him, you know, you're just bringing in a guy on a flyer off the waiver wire.
00:16:00
25 grand is unfortunately by NFL standards.
00:16:03
Drop in the hat and, you know, you bring him in, you have to take a look at him.
00:16:06
And listen, maybe you get your catching him at a point in his career or to your point.
00:16:10
Hasn't had any issues that we that that that Baker suffered from that ultimately led, uh, to the end of what could be the end of his career.
00:16:16
We hope not for his sake, he hasn't faced that.
00:16:19
So he still made it to the NFL.
00:16:21
He still made it onto a practice squad, and by all accounts, the Las Vegas Raiders weren't looking to lose him from the practice squad.
00:16:28
So hopefully he's turned that corner there.
00:16:30
The interesting thing for us now, though, is like this.
00:16:32
This could be a very much plug it in and play because you go back.
00:16:36
You mentioned homes there earlier where we say we go into the draft, we get homes he played on the outside.
00:16:42
But they say he's undersized, coming from college, going to pros.
00:16:44
Now we're trying to get him into the nickel.
00:16:46
He has struggled mightily there.
00:16:47
You start with Valentine on the outside, then you switch over and you start giving reps to Yatim.
00:16:51
Clearly, the Giants don't know what to do across from Bradbury, who I think you know in spite of.
00:16:57
If you go in and look at what the Q B rating has been when he's been targeted, that's a little bit higher than you maybe would want it to be.
00:17:03
He's done a very strong job in terms of only allowing, I think, sub 43% completion percentage when he's been target overall in the first two weeks of this season.
00:17:11
He has some nice deflections.
00:17:13
He's caused turnovers.
00:17:14
There's consistency there, right? And he's going up against the number one on every roster every week.
00:17:19
So now you're just really looking for consistency, and that doesn't mean you have to be elite level or, you know, top 30 cornerback in the NFL, just consistency of we know what we're going to get from you on a play to play serious, too serious basis and so far, the Giants and haven't been able to do that with the current roster.
00:17:36
Guys they brought in and yet him from Denver.
00:17:38
And now well, maybe see if Harper can be that guy.
00:17:41
At the very least, I like the length and size I really beyond that. I won't.
00:17:45
You know I won't lie and say I have a ton of film study on this guy.
00:17:48
But it will be interesting to see when he gets on the field, because I think the first thing with any of these guys that we said over the first three weeks ago I test right.
00:17:56
And just when you're watching the game, you go, boy Valentine really getting turned around there or Oh, man, why do I keep seeing 30 trailing across the field behind Receiver X, and that that is usually the first time where you say, Now, let's take a look at those numbers.
00:18:09
So if Harper gets on the field this week, we'll keep our eyes open and we'll see what he looks like in what will be, ah, difficult matchup against the Rams.
00:18:16
Yeah, you know, the way that I think about it is.
00:18:18
This, citing just kind of reaffirms that the Giants don't have that faith in Balentine.
00:18:22
It just doesn't seem like they look at him as a long term solution.
00:18:26
And they're really just trying to get someone to, you know, be on the opposite side of Bradbury.
00:18:31
That, you said is is competent that can stand his ground.
00:18:34
We know that they're going to give up some plays.
00:18:35
There's not just all pro cornerbacks just sitting on the waiver wire that we can we can scoop up from someone else's practice squad.
00:18:40
Um, but so for me, I think, um, more than happy to bring in another guy, see if we can catch lightning in a bottle and find someone that can stand up to it and stay on the active roster. But me.
00:18:52
To me, this speaks more about Valentine not being in, you know, necessarily in the future plans.
00:18:56
As of right now, you know, and then thinking about Darnay Holmes is a longer term project, cause he's struggling a little bit, you know, in his first couple of games, more than I think he even speaks the Harper himself.
00:19:07
Yeah, 100% which is unfortunate, and then you factor that into the Dave Gettleman situation and re evaluating his draft selections.
00:19:14
And now, if you throw Valentine potentially into the mix there, along with a DeAndre, Bakers is being Mrs.
00:19:20
And if you throw in Sam Bill to that category now, cornerbacks have been a real area of struggle for Gettleman toe.
00:19:26
Have success through the draft through the waiver wire, etcetera, to find a compliment across the way from Bradbury.
00:19:32
The final piece and really the biggest piece that we wanted to focus on here on Wednesday show is, of course, the offensive line.
00:19:39
You came out this week here and heard from Joe Judge.
00:19:42
That said, Listen, there is work we have to do and we have to improve as a team hinted that there could be an opportunity, uh, that for a switch up or changes to be made across this offensive line, the key staff to think about in regards to these potential changes are that Daniel Jones have been pressured 41 a half percent of his drop acts, which is third in the NFL.
00:20:03
So when you talk about as we highlight the start, right, Daniel Jones and what we expect out of this players he's developing.
00:20:10
And now, right now, week number four.
00:20:12
This officially will mark his second season of games, right 17th game for him of his career.
00:20:18
When you when you think about it from that standpoint, you want to at least be giving him the opportunity to have success.
00:20:23
And right now you're not doing that behind this offensive line.
00:20:26
When we look there, Andy, what what are your? Where's the first spot that you think of that? You could see change? I think we we hone in on the same kind of area, this offensive line and a little bit surprising relative to where are, Let's say again, I test would have told us on a week to week basis.
00:20:42
So until we get this fixed, can we just call our offensive line? Are offensive line because they are offensive right now in terms of giving up pressures to Daniel Jones can do that.
00:20:54
You are.
00:20:55
I'm a wordsmith.
00:20:58
Adam and I can't contain myself.
00:21:00
But when we talk about where we go on the offensive line, you know there's there's two areas that that I think, uh, you know, we looked at Camp Fleming originally in Week one.
00:21:10
He did not play well.
00:21:11
I mean, we can we can all admit it.
00:21:13
But, you know, if you start looking at some of the advanced metrics, he's actually played a little bit better the last couple of weeks.
00:21:19
Even though the eye test you feel like there's rushes off of the, you know, Daniel Jones is right side constantly.
00:21:26
You know, when you talk about, you know, we always say on the show, you know, football, focus.
00:21:30
Grades are not the Beale and all.
00:21:32
They are just one data point in which we use, but they are just a good reference point to be able to say, Where do we think people are compared to our eye test? And right now, across the offensive line, Nick Gates is the worst ranked offensive lineman at a 49.
00:21:46
7, which is not very good.
00:21:50
It's not even competent.
00:21:52
It's not middle of the road.
00:21:53
It's it's pretty bad when you talk about, you know, offensive linemen and Adam.
00:21:57
I think you know when we talk about Gates, is it that he's still getting comfortable? Is it that he's only played three games as a center and that we need to give him more time there.
00:22:07
Or is there something Mawr that you're seeing? What you're just saying? You know, we could give him 13 more games at center, and it's not gonna work here.
00:22:15
Yeah, I mean, he said this week when asked, he's looking forward to the matchup against Donald and saying, Hey, listen, as you said, Iron sharpens iron and he likes matching up against the best players because it means you get a chance to improve.
00:22:26
And that's the way that you get better.
00:22:28
Is taking on those big tasks.
00:22:29
Well, I'll answer that question with a bit of a question.
00:22:34
Do you think that Will? Hernandez is maybe showing significant regression at the left guard position because, to your point, he grades out of the 50.
00:22:44
6, and this is kind of speaks Thio.
00:22:47
We're honing in on center and left guard is potentially actually being the biggest issues right now on the offensive line, understanding the growing pains you expected to see from Andrew Thomas and so not unlike what you had pointed too often when we spoke about Nate solder right, you would always said, Well, you know, But what's happening alongside these players, how is how is the player next to him performing and that could directly impact him? So if I look at what I've seen from Hernandez over his career to start and what I saw from Nick Gates at right tackle and right guard when he filled in last year, I would say, at least on paper, Nick Gates has already shown the higher upside.
00:23:22
Now, is that a new position? And I wonder if maybe he's being negatively impacted by having a guy who's supposed to, at the very least, and we said this right Hernandez is supposed to be the guy that you lean on in the run game, and that's actually been the worst of his two categories has actually been really bad in run and actually respectable or decent in pass protection.
00:23:41
So I I don't know that that's the really hard part about it.
00:23:44
I think that unfortunately Nick Gates, it was put into a very difficult spot switching positions like this in this off season, so I would lean over to say you want to give him more time and yet there's also ways that maybe you improve this line by shifting pieces? Yes, and this is really the crux of our discussion today in terms off.
00:24:07
Well, if you make a change, where is the change? And now we could be crazy and just say, blow the whole thing up and bring, you know, four or five new guys in and just across the board.
00:24:15
Let's try the second, you know, the second grouping here, but I think we have to be a little bit smarter about the changes that we make.
00:24:22
I think you brought up a really good point, Adam, when you talk about Hernandez and how Yeah, we talked about how bad Nate Nate solder had looked.
00:24:29
We talked about how jalape o didn't look great.
00:24:32
We talked about how Spencer pull.
00:24:34
You didn't look great with one common thread with all these different guys.
00:24:37
You know, Andrew Thomas is struggling a little bit.
00:24:39
Nick Gates is struggling a little bit.
00:24:41
There is one consistency that sits between both of those positions for the last couple of years, and that is Will Hernandez.
00:24:46
And, you know, we're expecting him.
00:24:49
Thio continue to get better, and he's not getting better.
00:24:52
He's not.
00:24:53
And so you know, Yeah, This is kind of crazy to me that it's been multiple years of seeing Hernandez and we keep saying We're waiting for the breakout.
00:25:01
We're waiting for the breakout.
00:25:02
We're waiting for him to mature into a guy that's a stalwart of the offensive line.
00:25:06
And to me, he's probably the first area that I go to now when I think about making a move, well, you know, we talk about Cam Fleming and and for all of you know, the challenges that we think he has, he may not be a long term solution.
00:25:19
He's a traditional swing tackle that usually is better at plug, plug and play.
00:25:24
I would actually leave him out there, you know, and wait for a pert to develop and think about making a change mawr around Hernandez and seeing if someone like Shane Lemieux, who you drafted, can come in and compete You.
00:25:36
You really liked what you saw at a Shane Long.
00:25:38
You were kind of saying that he has the flexibility to move around the offensive line wherever you want, but I'm just curious if we move Hernandez out and Shane Lemieux in.
00:25:47
If that actually improves both Thomas and Gates in what they need to be doing on the left side.
00:25:53
You know what I did not anticipate? As we we usually collect ourselves on our show notes of what we're gonna go over.
00:25:59
But I didn't anticipate you going that way with what the adjustment was going to be that you would make to this line.
00:26:04
It's not a terrible way to look at it, man.
00:26:06
This is a guy in Lamu that they think it could be guard or center, right? They potentially you say we test out Nick Gates, and if it doesn't work, then we can always sample them.
00:26:15
You next year at the center position as well.
00:26:17
But maybe you're right.
00:26:18
You know, the big thing, as you were as you were talking about Hernandez, there is This isn't your number two.
00:26:23
This is your three for him.
00:26:24
So by this point, even a lot of times what we've been saying with young players here as well listen really weird off season, right? Not a lot of time now.
00:26:32
It is a new system, and that's great.
00:26:33
Well, your natural skill set should already be there.
00:26:36
If you're an offensive lineman a year.
00:26:38
Number three, right? So that's a really honestly, that's a really enticing move, man.
00:26:43
I don't know.
00:26:46
You know, Joe judging the coaching staff that that that's reflective off where, where he was drafted and how the organization fields and staying true to him, I think, to your point, like, Hey, take a chance.
00:26:57
Right? Okay, this is your three.
00:26:59
You drafted him.
00:27:00
It didn't work.
00:27:01
Maybe it's not working out now if he comes back strong at some point along the way, good for him.
00:27:04
But maybe you catch a little lightning in the bottle with with a with a Lamu, and it gives you an opportunity toe.
00:27:10
Open things up a little bit, especially in the run game.
00:27:12
And that's what we think Lamu can be for this offensive line.
00:27:16
That's a man that's a really that's a really interesting thought.
00:27:18
Well, listen, I don't know because the other thing that we had yeah, if you want, if you want to take this even further, why this makes the most sense of any move across the offensive line is because when I when I talked to John fans and I talked to the listeners with show.
00:27:30
They come back to me and they say, Well, Andy, you know what? The easiest thing is Nick Gates has the worst.
00:27:35
Pff.
00:27:36
Let's kick him out to right tackle where he showed.
00:27:39
You know, flashes of being come more than competent.
00:27:42
We'll get Camp Fleming out of there, and we'll bring in our old trusty friend named Spencer Poli to be at the center position and that will That will be our resolution.
00:27:51
And my answer to that is Nick Gates has a 49.
00:27:54
7 Pff rating.
00:27:56
He hasn't been great, but guess what? Spencer Pulley last year had a 48.7.
00:28:02
We already know what we're getting from Spencer Pouliot the center position.
00:28:05
And it's the downside.
00:28:07
It's the lowest end of what we're seeing from Nick Gates after three games of experience.
00:28:10
So to me, you know, making that move while camp plumbing looked, you know, pretty terrible.
00:28:15
In Week one against the Steelers, he's actually started to turn it around a little bit, and the and the ****ytics are proving that out.
00:28:22
So, for me, trading out gates for pulley doesn't really improve the center position, and you're kicking camp Fleming out to the right, and you're now changing things up with Nick Gates, where he's been practicing at center all year long to keep some consistency around this line.
00:28:35
Just make the change on Hernandez, who clearly is struggling right now in all facets of the game.
00:28:40
Especially, he's supposed to be strong in the run game.
00:28:42
He is not doing that right now.
00:28:44
So to me, the simple answer is trade a like for like don't switch all of these different things across the offensive line.
00:28:50
And let's see if that helps Gates or it helps Andrew Thomas because they're not getting as much pressure as they were before.
00:28:56
Yeah, to your point, people have mentioned to about the pressures that Thomas has allowed off.
00:29:01
That left side there, obviously, second most in the league right now.
00:29:04
I believe it 13 or 14 and you and you understand that you know that those lumps, they're gonna come early in his career.
00:29:09
But what what is your what? Your plan is switching it.
00:29:12
Some people have said so put him over the right side where there's less pressure and he doesn't have to worry about, you know, developing as much to your point, they go.
00:29:19
OK, but now who? You're putting it left tackle.
00:29:21
What's your solution? There.
00:29:22
Now you're gonna flip your foot Ken Fleming over there because he's played okay or respectable like you're not solving a problem.
00:29:27
You're kind of just moving where the issue lies.
00:29:29
On top of that, your point around consistency when Joe judge says, Listen, we may look to make changes.
00:29:37
They're not gonna rip out three starters, you know, we're putting in pulley and we're moving Nick Gates and we're also, by the way, we're moving Nick Gates, the left tackle, and we're something Thomas over right tackle.
00:29:48
We're gonna have three guys in three new positions.
00:29:50
Doing an incremental switch makes a lot of sense because then you kinda identify if I take out Hernandez and I put in Lamu.
00:29:58
Let's get a little sample size. Let's take a look.
00:30:00
How is this about now? I'll do devils advocate.
00:30:02
I like I like where you're coming from With it, I will say you run the risk potentially if you're the Giants of saying What if Lemme is not ready, right? What if he's not ready to step in and we burn out a young draft prospect over this sample size because he just starts getting pummeled, right? And we just break the guy.
00:30:21
I think that that's okay, by the way.
00:30:22
Like I'm But I'm just, you know, putting out that idea of how much do you want to protect these players? Because to that point, I think that if you say you make that switch and it goes even, respectively, with Lemieux there, I'll say this the long term solution over the course of this season.
00:30:37
Maybe at some point, you d c pert get inserted for Fleming, Not about Fleming's play, but just because you're ready to roll into this younger player right tackle.
00:30:44
And then additionally, the extra effort.
00:30:47
The extra option that you end up getting is Hernandez.
00:30:50
You're gonna be our swing backup guard now, and you're going to start to get reps on both left and right guard.
00:30:55
We know Zidler isn't long term for the Giants, So maybe Hernandez develops and develops nicely behind him and then going into big picture next season, you say, Hey, Hernandez, you're gonna be on the right side now at the guard spot.
00:31:08
Maybe that's better for you.
00:31:10
Maybe it just works better for you.
00:31:11
Now That's asking a lot of guys switching from one side of the other muscle memory and all those things.
00:31:15
But at least you're giving a chance for Hernandez to still have an opportunity, a part of this team and find a spot here.
00:31:20
It's a risk reward.
00:31:22
I don't think that you would say, and I'm super confident and putting in Lamu, but I I think that the Giants, at this 10.
00:31:28
0, and three, we all know the stat lines about what it means for playoff implications and more importantly than any of that, what we've seen is faras pressure on Daniel Jones.
00:31:36
Let's tweak it piece by piece and see what options plug in you very well may see the Giants and Joe Judge say this week we're going to give them you a shot, right? Okay, let's see what it looks like if he plays even close to what we've gotten from Hernandez.
00:31:50
Not a high bar, he's going to get at least another week or two if we see the gates continues to struggle it center.
00:31:56
Maybe you do see pulley, even though I wouldn't prefer it Maybe Pulley does get a run there to see if those connection of players work better.
00:32:04
Who works the best as the collection of offensive linemen? The only other wrinkle I guess you could throw in there is to say we theoretically thought that Lamu was going to become a center.
00:32:15
It was going to become a center out of as a guard out of college, and I wonder if depending how long they go.
00:32:21
And if Fernandez tweaks or gets better at all, then you would say, If we don't see the results from Nick Gates, technically, you could look that direction as well.
00:32:29
I think that that's too big a verse reward, and I also think it's easier to judge and feel like it's a known thing with Hernandez Right now.
00:32:37
I feel like it's too early to know what Nick Gates is at center after a position change.
00:32:41
Well, And also, Nick Gates has had just a pandemic offseason to get ready to be the center, and the Giants liked what they saw from him and camp enough to give him a contract extension.
00:32:52
So, you know, for for him he's kind of locked in at a za piece of this offensive line, you know, I'll be it.
00:32:58
It's It's not crippling financially for the New York Giants, if they ever needed to move on from the gates.
00:33:03
But they've invested in him, and three games isn't gonna fully change that.
00:33:06
They're invested in Andrew Thomas.
00:33:08
Three games of hurries isn't gonna change that For me.
00:33:10
This is like you said Year three of Hernandez.
00:33:13
If he's not getting the job done in the thing that he's supposed to excel at, then we need to look other places.
00:33:18
And I'm fine machine.
00:33:19
Lemieux potentially being center.
00:33:21
But you already paid the money to the gates to be there.
00:33:23
You haven't committed long term to Hernandez.
00:33:25
To me, that's the easiest, simplest like for like transition.
00:33:29
The Giants could dio without taking all this and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
00:33:33
Like to me, let's make one adjustment.
00:33:35
Let's see if it has an impact across the entire offensive line and and and hope for the best.
00:33:41
You know, the last footnote that I'll give about the offensive line because we haven't really mentioned Ziegler's name very much is that he is struggling in terms of his standards as well.
00:33:52
He's a He's a 64.
00:33:53
8 on the pro football focus ratings.
00:33:55
I believe he's never been lower than a 71 so he's significantly lower than what were we expect from Settler.
00:34:01
But because everywhere else has holes, you know, he ends up looking like the best one in terms of of grading, but certainly not to the level that we expect from him and Adam.
00:34:12
My question to you is, Is that just a product of everyone around him struggling so much that he's not getting a chance toe, Just do his one job? Or is it? You know, a regression that we should be worried about? I would I would tend to think that because you just brought in camp.
00:34:26
Fleming again.
00:34:27
Beat this thing through the entire episode here.
00:34:31
Random offseason, not the traditional one.
00:34:33
So how much continuity do you have with Cam Flemming? And even though you have familiarity with Nick yet, having played it right tackle, he's now on your left side of the center position.
00:34:42
So continuity, maybe an issue there and the fact that he's still playing pretty solid while we're talking about Nick Gates struggling early on, I I tend to lean in the direction off.
00:34:52
This is a product of the guys around him right now trying to get their feet underneath them and feel comfortable around.
00:34:56
It s so I'm willing todo I give him the season because to your point about making the change, what you do then have is, of course, would be rookie and Andrew Thomas at left tackle, rookie and Shane Lamu it left guard and first year center in Nick Gates in the middle of this line.
00:35:14
So you would be talking about putting a lot of young talent out there.
00:35:17
But as I said in the preseason, as I said through training camp the second that pert shows you enough to be even close to what Cam Fleming is.
00:35:27
You make that switch this season because you want to get him those reps.
00:35:30
And if you're telling me that Fleming's been, you know, serviceable in all right, a soon as you think that pert could be serviceable in all right, this year you put him in a swell, and then you're talking about having all the young talent, all these young players that you drafted getting experienced this year and understanding it's not about what we're doing this season.
00:35:47
But then, maybe by week 13 14 15 all of a sudden you say, Boy, look, how are running? Game has kind of come around with some of these guys.
00:35:53
Look how the protection the pressure percentages has dropped over the course of the season on Daniel Jones.
00:35:58
So that's what you're looking for with some of these moves, and you have to be willing Thio risk something to get the reward of it.
00:36:05
And it may be risking losing Hernandez because, by the way, third year draft in the second round, it means you can pick up his fourth year option, right, if that's how I'm pretty sure that's how that contract works out.
00:36:16
If you're in the first round, you get that extra year of control.
00:36:18
So by being in the second round that you're coming up on it.
00:36:21
So you know, where are you in terms of staying, committed and invested in Hernandez, you have to be willing to evaluate everything and know that that changes you.
00:36:29
Maybe didn't expect last year could be coming sooner than we anticipated.
00:36:33
No risk.
00:36:34
It no biscuit.
00:36:35
Adam that is the name of the game.
00:36:36
And you know what they say.
00:36:38
They always say that about the biscuits.
00:36:40
And you know what? The last thing I'll say about the offensive line? There is concerns.
00:36:43
If you do decide to put in Lamu how young the left side is.
00:36:46
But guess what? Last year we had veteran leader Nate Solder on the left side.
00:36:50
We had second year promise out of Nick, you know, out of Will Hernandez.
00:36:54
Then at the center position, we had stalwarts like John Jalape O and Spencer pulling in there.
00:36:59
And guess what? We were not very good.
00:37:01
So So for me, it's like, Okay, we could have more veterans.
00:37:04
But at this point, if we're already looking for the future, let's get these guys out there and see what we have and know with a lot of dollars in the free agent market, whether or not we need to address the position again or if we have something for the future.
00:37:16
And to me, the biggest indictment or red flag around Hernandez is that you had solder and you have jalopy.
00:37:22
Oh, and you didn't look so good.
00:37:24
Now you have Thomas and Now you have Gates and you look even worse and you can say it's impacted by the guys around you.
00:37:30
But I can still also look just that you and I can say that it's not going so well the same way you looking slightly and you go listen, does he looked a little bit.
00:37:37
Is that the numbers Not looking strong this year? Maybe, but he hasn't fallen off a cliff the way that we're seeing from Hernandez.
00:37:43
So unfortunately, that could be a swing and a miss.
00:37:45
And at that point you'd be talking about some really indictments around Dave Gettleman and reconstructing that offensive line and just what's happened.
00:37:53
Up to this point, maybe by the end of the year, we're talking about the Thomases, Lemieux's and parts of the world, and everything looks a lot different.
00:37:59
As far as how we feel about our, uh, I don't know are, are are on the hot seat.
00:38:04
GM is probably putting it lightly.
00:38:06
Wouldn't it be ironic if the hog Mali's end up doing in David Gettleman God, well, listen ironic for him? Yes, but from a Giants fans perspective, it was irony would not be the first word that came to mind it Would you know something around a Dumpster and lit matches that would be borderline where I was at that.
00:38:28
We'll get out of here on that.
00:38:29
That's what I knew.
00:38:30
We were going to spend a lot of our time talking about this offensive line.
00:38:32
We've really interested to see if any of these changes come to Joe Judges Point, he was saying, As we work our way through the week of practice, if someone showing it, then we're going to get the shot.
00:38:42
So whether it is Shane Lamu getting a look here and by the way, I don't know what the switch up could be, this is actually the last wrinkle I want to throw out.
00:38:50
I'm sorry that we have to circle back to it.
00:38:53
If you think that Shane Lamu is best suited to slide into right guard, would you flip flops Zeitler over to the left side? Now I know what you're talking about about continuity, but I'm just thinking about saying if we feel like settlers, drop off is really about Gates getting better and what Fleming is doing just talking about trying to get the right combination that offers you the best ability for every player.
00:39:17
So maybe Zettler then in turn, helps Thomas right on the left side.
00:39:22
And then Fleming, as a veteran, is helping LEM you on the right side that now that's multiple spots, and I'm not a I'm not an automatic there.
00:39:30
I don't go.
00:39:31
And that makes a lot of sense, because slipping swapping positions like that for players is not an easy task.
00:39:36
But it's just something that I do start to marinate on here in terms of trying to spread out and mitigate the risk reward of young players on the line.
00:39:43
My simple answer to that is I want to diagnose the problem and not just put Band AIDS across the offensive line.
00:39:50
If we take a like for, like move with Hernandez for Shane Lamu, we will very quickly see whether or not that is the problem is it's, you know, it's like running tests and diagnostics to see if that is the issue.
00:40:01
Because if Shane Lamu struggles and he looks like Hernandez and and Gates continues to struggle on, Thomas continues to struggle, then okay, it's not just Hernandez, but if things do change and it does look good for Shane Lamu.
00:40:12
We've identified the area that we need to fix.
00:40:15
We've made changes and across the offensive line we've gotten better.
00:40:18
So I wouldn't shake things up and move multiple positions around just yet because then you don't know which is the causation or the correlation.
00:40:25
When you start making some of these different moves, you have 100%.
00:40:28
So but this is This is the way my mind goes.
00:40:29
The wheels start to turn and I start playing musical chairs with the entire offensive line.
00:40:33
And before you know it, I've got Can Fleming at center.
00:40:36
You know that, Z, if you give me enough time, I can get there.
00:40:40
We'll talk yourself into it.
00:40:42
Yes. Telling me there's a chance anyway.
00:40:44
Is there anything else though, Man, Just in general, How are we feeling right now? I tried to reset myself.
00:40:49
Monday was a rough episode as we wrap this Wednesday show up here.
00:40:53
We will be back in on Friday and we're gonna have a nice guest spot covering the Rams.
00:40:57
So we continue our crossover work in our matchup previews.
00:41:00
But do you come into this now because I very much got into evaluation mode of this roster.
00:41:07
I very much now.
00:41:08
I'm on a week to week basis and it's like saying, Bring in Lamu, bring in pert.
00:41:12
Uh, that's where I am right now on this team.
00:41:14
Are you still holding out optimism? You kind of set it on on Mondays on Monday's show, where you said, Well, you know, But still, you got that nice stretch with the Washington football team and a bad Philly team and the Cincinnati Bangles.
00:41:26
You gave me some some inclination that you still see winds in this schedule here, whereas I I'm just on full blown scouting.
00:41:36
Let me let me know if this if you're bringing a kid from Las Vegas, Okay, let's see if you could be our starting cornerback.
00:41:42
That's all that I'm looking at now, until I see some real proof that you can move the ball effectively that you can put up points, we're trending in the wrong direction on a week to week basis.
00:41:51
16 13 9.
00:41:53
I mean, you're talking about what? Five.
00:41:54
We're getting five points this week.
00:41:56
It's like how much lower can this offensive side of the ball go where do you stand right now? What's the mental check in here? And and, by the way, don't go to extreme because we are going to do our quarter of the season review of a lot of guys and breaking down what we like and don't like.
00:42:11
But are you still telling me there's a chance The Philadelphia Eagles are not benching Carson Wentz because they feel like they still have a shot in the division and they don't have a win yet.
00:42:22
And they actually have a division loss.
00:42:24
And they're saying we know that Carson once might look like the worst quarterback in the league right now, but we're not giving up on him because we still have a shot.
00:42:32
The Giants are a half game behind the Eagles, and they haven't even played a division game yet.
00:42:36
I know it is crazy to think that in Oh, and three team that has looked as poorly as the Giants have looked has any shot, but I will give the silver lining here for giant fans.
00:42:47
We have not played a division game yet.
00:42:49
The division winner is probably going to get to seven wins, maybe eight wins.
00:42:54
We're not talking about having to get to 10 wins or 12 wins, like in some of these other divisions.
00:42:59
The Rams game is going to be a challenge.
00:43:01
We will highlight our predictions Right now.
00:43:04
It looks like the Giants opened as a 13 13.
00:43:06
5 point underdog.
00:43:08
So there almost touchdown e Yeah, God Road.
00:43:14
So it's It's no.
00:43:16
No one is expecting anything from the Giants to go out to Los Angeles and get a win, especially with how good the Rams have looked.
00:43:22
You know they have two wins.
00:43:23
They lost one game against Buffalo at Buffalo.
00:43:26
That really it was kind of a coin flip pass interference.
00:43:29
Was it? Was it not? You know, and they have a dominant pass rusher in Aaron.
00:43:33
Donald, that is not gonna make our line look better.
00:43:35
And if you think about where the Giants have been, you're talking about having Thio deal with, but do pre TJ Watt.
00:43:42
You're talking about having to deal with Khalil Mack, and now you're talking about having to deal with Aaron Donald like it doesn't get easier for the Giants on the line.
00:43:50
It also, if you're expecting a turnaround regardless of changes.
00:43:53
It's probably not gonna be this week, But listen, if the giant Cowboys or Washington listen, I'm just, you know, the Cowboys have shown that they can give up points.
00:44:04
Their defense is not nearly any of the defense is that we've played so far in terms off the.
00:44:10
They haven't shown that they could score any points.
00:44:12
I agree with all that, but if you're looking for a silver lining, it's that this is going to be a very difficult game for the Giants.
00:44:21
We finally get into division games after this game against the Rams.
00:44:25
If we find a way to win the Rams game, that gives us even more momentum, obviously, going into the division.
00:44:30
But even if we just look competitive and we come out against the Cowboys, if we get a win against the Cowboys and we're one in four, but 1 to in the division, we're actually still alive in this whole thing, which is crazy to think about so giant fans.
00:44:43
We are in evaluation mode, but don't give up hope yet.
00:44:46
Maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle with one of these moves or changes and we can at least fight in what is clearly the worst division in all of football.
00:44:54
Shout out to, ah DPM Ray over SportsCastr who jumped in on the chat and has just been peppering, peppering me and us with.
00:45:03
There's nothing sweeter than a long form conversation around the offensive line.
00:45:06
I know this is so we've really we've had a hell of an episode breaking it all down, and but I've been to his point, though.
00:45:12
Man, he's right on board with you.
00:45:13
Eight wins could, you know, take this division right now and it's interesting to think about how bad it's been, how brutal it's been and yet how you can still managed to make this season at least interesting.
00:45:26
And that's what we talked about the beginning the year, right? All I want is it to be an interesting season.
00:45:30
It hasn't.
00:45:31
It has been interesting for the first three weeks, not in the way that I would have hoped, but it has been interesting.
00:45:35
It'd just be nice to see them find a way to get a couple of wins or at least see everybody else in the division keep losing so that we continue to somehow be scoring sub 10 points and remaining competitive.
00:45:46
That being the case, I can tell friends by the empty Moose cup of coffee.
00:45:51
That's all the time we have.
00:45:52
We will, of course, be back in on Friday will highlight the Rams matchup.
00:45:56
We'll have our surprise guest crossover content there as well, so join us for that.
00:46:01
Follow us on social media at one giant podcast and over on SportsCastr live streaming three days a week.
00:46:06
Monday Wednesday, Friday at 8:30 a.m.
00:46:09
and, of course, download rate review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get those sweet, sweet needs fulfilled.
00:46:14
And as Andrew Mackiewicz would like you to know, as always, Let's go Big Blue Bang!
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Adam Armbrecht @OneGiantPodcast

Transcript hideup

00:00:00
there is always I am Adam arm wrecked and over there is the healthy, wealthy and wise Andy Mackiewicz feeling good.
00:00:07
Yankees gotta win big win last night.
00:00:09
So hopefully there's some good New York sports vibes heading to the Giants on Sunday.
00:00:15
You better believe it.
00:00:16
We probably should have touched base doing a lot of preparation for this episode.
00:00:20
Obviously, a lot of different things we want to touch on for the Giants in this midweek.
00:00:23
I'm trying Thio, Let's bring it back down.
00:00:26
Let's go ahead and level ourselves back off.
00:00:27
Right? Um, but I could have taken a look at just the visual that I was putting out there for SportsCastr.
00:00:33
This is not Don't worry about me, boys.
00:00:36
We're going to be fine.
00:00:37
I am not vain in the slightest Let's do the thing that we do here before we dive in Thio Ah, couple of news and notes around the team and then also some real questions that we have.
00:00:49
And we're concerned, I guess you'd say, as a lot of Giants fans are right now and some changes may in fact be coming too big blue.
00:00:56
But as we did last week and will be a little bit of a rolling theme here Wednesday. Andy.
00:01:01
It's the This day in history segment of the one giant podcast.
00:01:05
And I didn't go all the way back to the 19 thirties for this one.
00:01:08
You should have a frame of reference here this day.
00:01:12
In 2007 the Giants had a victory in their division.
00:01:19
Do you know who that was against? Mm, That is.
00:01:23
I'll give you good odds.
00:01:25
I'm giving you good odds here.
00:01:26
That is a good one.
00:01:27
I'm gonna go with the Philadelphia Eagles, sir. You are correct.
00:01:32
16 to 13 in a game where Eli Manning lit it up for 135 passing yards.
00:01:38
This was win number two, and what would be their six game win streak inside of that nine and seven season, obviously, up and down with the back end.
00:01:45
But then they went on that great wild card run in the playoffs to win a championship under one loved, beloved and missed Thomas Coughlin.
00:01:55
So we we way hopefully bring back a positive memory to the people before we turn our attention over to the current New York football Giants roster and the current New York football Giants quarterback.
00:02:06
Let's keep those positive vibes going, Andy, where I tell you that maybe you don't know this, but Daniel Jones is actually in fantastic early career company.
00:02:16
Do you have any Any any inclination as to why this guy might be might be really feeling pretty good about himself right now, as we look towards week for maybe because the Giants were getting wins in 2007 scoring 16 points a game, and that's right around what they're averaging right now.
00:02:31
It could that be it.
00:02:32
Tragically, that would only lead toe one win this season because they've only actually gotten there once at 16 points.
00:02:37
In spite of that margin, the big number there was three for the Philadelphia Eagles.
00:02:41
No, listen for whatever it's worth.
00:02:43
And we are fans of Daniel Jones.
00:02:45
We still believe in him.
00:02:46
Obviously, we've been quarterbacks and otherwise pretty consistent with our approach of You want to give players an opportunity to learn to grow and get better, especially the quarterback position.
00:02:57
You know they're gonna take their lumps.
00:02:58
So just for sake of argument, let's remember friends that Peyton Manning when three and 13 in his rookie season as an NFL quarterback.
00:03:06
There are several other ones who on Lee had three or fewer wins over there, 1st 15 starts.
00:03:12
And that's you know we're in that wheelhouse right now for Daniel Jones that include Pro Football Hall of Famers Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Folks, Fran Tarkenton and Bart Starr, plus bonus names like Vinny Testaverde and Archie Manning.
00:03:27
So you know you can.
00:03:30
You can say that somewhere in that spectrum, Daniel Jones may lie.
00:03:34
But the good news is, or maybe at least you know, we We see this from quarterbacks.
00:03:37
We see this around the league, right? Not every first start of the season.
00:03:41
Every 16 games.
00:03:42
Sample sizes.
00:03:43
Patrick Mahomes.
00:03:44
There's going to be a spectrum here.
00:03:45
And while the turnovers have been concerning for Jones, you can always say, Hey, this is season number one right now for him after those first three games because he came in late last year in his rookie season.
00:03:57
And as this year moves along, let's start to see the progression.
00:04:00
And let's continue to look for signs that he's showing growth and continue to could be the franchise quarterback for the Giants.
00:04:06
Well, I think one interesting note on all of that is teams don't let you lose that many games unless they see some something from you that they think that they can build on.
00:04:16
You know, some of these other quarterbacks that air Young either come in halfway through their rookie season.
00:04:21
You know, they kind of protect them and make them sit for quite a while.
00:04:24
You know, Daniel Jones has, you know, he sat for the first two games that then came out right after, um, the Dallas Cowboys game.
00:04:31
You know, it says that the the coaching staff and the G M and the organization have faith in Daniel Jones and that the wins and losses air not directly attributed to him and that eventually they think he has the ability to turn it around with more experience and potentially mawr weapons and him or quality, you know, just across the board on this team.
00:04:52
Yeah, and that's the hard part, just in general, around the NFL new mentality of saying you know what we can afford or we choose to now because the college game has gotten closer closer to the pro level in terms of style.
00:05:04
We're gonna throw these guys right in.
00:05:05
So you have to, You would think still, leave that wiggle room of saying, Well, if you didn't play for your first year, how would that mitigate some of those mistakes that you made as you start off your career? So listen, Silver Lining, friends.
00:05:17
Something to think about.
00:05:18
We continue to be excited about what Daniel Jones could grow into as we play close to pay close attention to what he does over the next.
00:05:25
You know, 13 games for the New York Giants.
00:05:27
So it still does.
00:05:28
Of course, it is subject to change.
00:05:30
Based on what we see on the field, Let's turn our attention.
00:05:34
And, you know, I was I was just gonna say and and, you know, the Giants were committed to Daniel Jones for for at least the rest of the year, having someone like Colt.
00:05:43
Colt McCoy, a veteran leader behind him.
00:05:44
It's not like they're looking.
00:05:45
You know Daniel Jones looking over a shoulder, saying, You know who's gonna replace me if I fumble the ball again? The Giants are invested in Daniel Jones, at least through the end of this year.
00:05:53
Well, by the way, I'll touch back on this.
00:05:55
Remember that conversation around Josh Rosen? He's out there in the Giants.
00:05:59
Take a flyer on them.
00:06:00
This is the exact reason why you wouldn't want him on the roster.
00:06:02
If if you believe in Daniel Jones and you want to be your quarterback because Owen three, the fumble issues, the turnover issues overall still exists there.
00:06:10
The offensive line, all these different things, all the all the issues that the Giants are facing right now.
00:06:14
This would be the perfect time for a certain segment of the fan base to say, Well, come on, put in Josh Rosen.
00:06:19
Let's see if you could give you a spark and then you effectively end the New York football giant career of Daniel Jones.
00:06:24
And you may also effectively not have a career for Josh Rosen and go okay, moving on friends.
00:06:31
So that's I think, Why, why you hesitate to make moves like that when you see Ah, a name that maybe sounds bigger, that it actually is now.
00:06:40
Yeah, but we're not.
00:06:41
We're not a junior varsity team here.
00:06:43
We don't We don't give out, you know, awards Just because you're good enough, Thio start.
00:06:49
But there's not someone behind you that's competitive enough or has enough upside to be able to participate in the next game that you're playing like I want the best talent we can get.
00:06:58
If Daniel Jones ends up not being the guy, and we keep talking about how we do still believe in Daniel Jones, we have faith in Daniel Jones.
00:07:05
I'm okay with bringing in competition.
00:07:07
You know, Iron sharpens iron Adam.
00:07:09
I want the best players, the ones that have the most upside to come in and compete with each other.
00:07:14
And if we're just not gonna sign guys because we're worried like, Oh, we may have too many options on the bench to, like, test out like that to me would be the wrong reason to not sign someone.
00:07:24
I do understand that we wanna have faith in Daniel Jones, and maybe this gives him a longer leash because Colt McCoy is that better and back up.
00:07:30
But I'm at this point.
00:07:32
I'm down with bring in as much talent as we can get on this roster because we are lacking depth at many of our positions.
00:07:41
Iron sharpens iron and rubbing two sticks together could start a fire.
00:07:44
That would be my That's my That's my response in concern of a move like that.
00:07:48
Nevertheless, though, I think it's valid what you're saying, and I do understand the idea of competition.
00:07:52
Let's switch gears here and talk about some of the roster moves.
00:07:56
The things that were done here.
00:07:58
Excuse me.
00:07:59
Over the course of this past week, obviously, the waiver wire order reset after Week three, the Giants found them in the second position.
00:08:05
Before we touch on that, we do mention here that, obviously Jabrill Peppers left that game suffered a low ankle sprain, looked to be potentially more severe.
00:08:14
When he first left the game, Love replaced him.
00:08:17
All indications are he should be in line to play this weekend against the Rams and even if not, if they hold them out for caution, he should be back Week five against the Dallas Cowboys, ready to roll.
00:08:28
So dodging a bullet there and what has been obviously an injury and losing players up and down for the Giants, they're gonna keep peppers hopefully healthier for the remainder off this season.
00:08:38
The other areas that we look at of course, or what the Giants did, both on the practice squad and then on the main team.
00:08:44
First footnote over on the practice squad is that they brought in ah, veteran in running back Alfred Morris to the practice squad.
00:08:51
Now there's a couple of moves that were made in conjunction with that.
00:08:54
But where do you stand on a move like this, Andy? Things excite you.
00:08:59
Does this feel like a waste of a move? Because I think that's really the two sides of the coin.
00:09:05
Are Is this a quality veteran? You're adding in there? What does it mean for some of the other guys that are up there? Mainly Wayne Goldman, I would say.
00:09:12
And what does it mean for some of the practice squad players? Does it speak to the state of the franchise? If I were to come out and say I was excited about signing a 31 year old running back to the practice squad, I mean, let's just let's just call a spade a spade there.
00:09:27
I am not excited about this.
00:09:29
I'm kind of indifferent about it.
00:09:31
I mean, there's a couple different ways that you could think about it one, I think, um, you know, we talked a little bit about this earlier.
00:09:38
I think it just shows that the Giants are looking to compete, and they want to be able to fill the roster accordingly, so that that's kind of the first thing that I think about.
00:09:45
The second thing is, I think they're also creating contingency plans.
00:09:49
Toe have a running back that can run between the tackles.
00:09:52
And so, to your point, if Devonta Freeman doesn't look good or Devonta, Freeman gets nicked up.
00:09:57
Or even when Goldman gets injured, they wanna be ableto have a veteran leader that can step in right away.
00:10:03
Can can understand how to get you three or four yards when we need it.
00:10:06
And so for me, this this is kind of one of those.
00:10:09
Well, okay, it's just a little bit of depth.
00:10:11
Of course, I'd like a younger running back with upside, but we're trying to compete.
00:10:15
We're trying to make sure that we have a competent running game for the next 13 games and not necessarily think well, who could be the third string running back next year behind Se****, Barkley and Dion Lewis? And that's what you saw around social media about e think the commentary of this is everything that's wrong with the Giants franchise bringing Alfred Morris to the practice squad as opposed to bringing back Javon Leak.
00:10:36
Now we had talked about Leak, and we thought we were excited about him interested to see what he could have done.
00:10:40
But I don't look at a guy who's not currently on the roster as be you know, if no other team was looking to scoop up Javon Leak, even on to the practice squad.
00:10:50
That tells you a lot about that.
00:10:51
Players.
00:10:52
Well, it doesn't mean doesn't have potential, but it just means that he's no more valuable than any other commodities that you may have down on the practice squad.
00:10:58
And when you talk about Morris, you think back.
00:11:00
Listen, he only played a 31 on Lee had one game appearance last year for Arizona.
00:11:06
Nothing really doing there, but the year prior you talk about appearing in 12 games, starting one still gave you 3.
00:11:11
9 yards per carry.
00:11:13
He's a career 4.
00:11:14
3 yards per carry guy, to your point, he's a between the tackles.
00:11:17
Guayas Well, like I don't want to say I don't want I don't wanna get over excited about it.
00:11:23
But I think that there is value in this and to your to your other point about the Giants.
00:11:28
Joe Judge.
00:11:29
They want to stay competitive here.
00:11:30
And this is something that I've mentioned before that I have to adjust personally about this season.
00:11:34
I came in saying, I want all the young guys to play.
00:11:36
I want them to take their lumps.
00:11:38
I want us to develop and grow.
00:11:39
You start to lose.
00:11:40
Players threw off the field issues through opt outs, etcetera, and it changes the mentality.
00:11:45
And you're seeing at least that that this coaching staff and this organization, they're trying to be competitive and sometimes veteran presence.
00:11:54
It does help in those small margin areas, and maybe that's what Morris is going to be, even if it is just solely on the practice squad.
00:12:00
Maybe he's only there for a couple of weeks and he gets cut like we don't know what that's gonna look like, but I'm OK taking fliers on a veteran player.
00:12:07
Yeah, and I think the giant fans forget what the expectations were coming into this year.
00:12:11
We weren't supposed to be a great team, so we wanted to develop young talent.
00:12:14
And then we see what happens when when we put young talent out there like, you know, Andrew Thomas, like some of our younger players like Darnay Holmes, and you kind of see the lumps that they're taking.
00:12:24
And now we're like, Well, we stink.
00:12:25
We're we're not competitive.
00:12:27
We were, you know, were so far away.
00:12:28
It's like, Well, you wanted these guys to get the reps.
00:12:31
You knew that they weren't necessarily the veteran.
00:12:33
You know, uh, people like someone like Logan Ryan is that that comes in and steps in and can compete right away, So we can't really have it both ways.
00:12:40
I know we'd love to be able to develop young talent while still competing, but it's that delicate balance you bring in.
00:12:45
Sometimes a guy like Alfred Morris to solidify the back end of your practice squad and people are up in arms saying that this is the state of the franchise, right? Like he's like he's like that, you know, he's assigning.
00:12:56
That's, you know, in break, you know, Brick glass.
00:13:00
If emergency happens here right, like uh, to me, it's It's not a big deal.
00:13:04
It's just adding depth.
00:13:05
We can move past Alfred Morris, and we can start talking about some of the other signings that the Giants had.
00:13:13
Yes, and the biggest one that happened this week because of their place in that waiver wire order.
00:13:18
They were that they were able to sign cornerback.
00:13:21
Uh, that's going to be Excuse me as I lose my place here.
00:13:24
Madre Harper off of the Raiders practice squad now.
00:13:27
The reason why it may feel a little bit even more significant than you first think is because the Giants actually offered him one a $25,000 signing bonus in order to lower him away from the Las Vegas Raiders and then, on top of which he is being brought into the active 53 man roster.
00:13:43
So at 6 ft two, running a 442 40 out of college, he offers a little bit of size and length for the Giants, potentially on the outside.
00:13:51
And I'm not.
00:13:52
I'm not over hyping this one either, but what you are seeing is the Giants are still actively searching for the answer.
00:13:57
In terms of the combination of players that can complete their secondary.
00:14:01
And, you know you can run these guys out for to your point about Bradbury.
00:14:04
He's played 100% of the snaps the first three weeks.
00:14:06
You want Mawr guys that are playing Ah, higher rep Total as opposed Thio parsing them out and trying to mismatch throughout the game.
00:14:13
Well, so the thing with mantra Harper is he has theater lettuces, Um, that you love to see.
00:14:18
He's 61 he ran a 441 40 during his pro day.
00:14:24
Um, and the thing that worries me and I won't get too bent out of shape about this, Adam, is, you know, we talk about some of the issues that some of the players that we have drafted have had in the past.
00:14:36
You know? You look at DeAndre Baker.
00:14:38
There was some red flags coming out of college about him being lazy or him, you know, not showing up the practices or doing some of those different things.
00:14:45
You know, Madre Harper went undrafted because he got drafted out of Southern Illinois and in 2017 he was kicked off the Oklahoma State team, and, uh, you know Mike Van Gundy or Mike Gundy? Sorry, uh, came out and basically said, Yeah, he violated team rules.
00:15:02
He stepped out of our culture a little bit, and unfortunately, we have to make tough decisions.
00:15:07
And so it, you know, because we're not giving up too much here in terms of assets where we traded up to take DeAndre Baker in the first round.
00:15:14
It's not, you know, a criminally it's not criminal offense or an indictment on Dave Gettleman to be able to bring someone in like this.
00:15:20
But again, it's It's just another noteworthy thing to say.
00:15:23
There are question marks, and maybe that's why this guy has fallen.
00:15:26
Now can the Giants, as an organization, kind of put their hands around them and say, Hey, maybe we can kind of nurture you know that out of you to be able to get that athleticism on the field on game day.
00:15:36
But it's just a just a side note that I, I think, is worth pointing out when we just lost a 6 ft one cornerback with some issues off the field.
00:15:47
Yeah, I know, I agree with you right, and it's easier to take a flyer on a guy that maybe has some, as they like to say, red flags for himself because it's just bring him, you know, you're just bringing in a guy on a flyer off the waiver wire.
00:16:00
25 grand is unfortunately by NFL standards.
00:16:03
Drop in the hat and, you know, you bring him in, you have to take a look at him.
00:16:06
And listen, maybe you get your catching him at a point in his career or to your point.
00:16:10
Hasn't had any issues that we that that that Baker suffered from that ultimately led, uh, to the end of what could be the end of his career.
00:16:16
We hope not for his sake, he hasn't faced that.
00:16:19
So he still made it to the NFL.
00:16:21
He still made it onto a practice squad, and by all accounts, the Las Vegas Raiders weren't looking to lose him from the practice squad.
00:16:28
So hopefully he's turned that corner there.
00:16:30
The interesting thing for us now, though, is like this.
00:16:32
This could be a very much plug it in and play because you go back.
00:16:36
You mentioned homes there earlier where we say we go into the draft, we get homes he played on the outside.
00:16:42
But they say he's undersized, coming from college, going to pros.
00:16:44
Now we're trying to get him into the nickel.
00:16:46
He has struggled mightily there.
00:16:47
You start with Valentine on the outside, then you switch over and you start giving reps to Yatim.
00:16:51
Clearly, the Giants don't know what to do across from Bradbury, who I think you know in spite of.
00:16:57
If you go in and look at what the Q B rating has been when he's been targeted, that's a little bit higher than you maybe would want it to be.
00:17:03
He's done a very strong job in terms of only allowing, I think, sub 43% completion percentage when he's been target overall in the first two weeks of this season.
00:17:11
He has some nice deflections.
00:17:13
He's caused turnovers.
00:17:14
There's consistency there, right? And he's going up against the number one on every roster every week.
00:17:19
So now you're just really looking for consistency, and that doesn't mean you have to be elite level or, you know, top 30 cornerback in the NFL, just consistency of we know what we're going to get from you on a play to play serious, too serious basis and so far, the Giants and haven't been able to do that with the current roster.
00:17:36
Guys they brought in and yet him from Denver.
00:17:38
And now well, maybe see if Harper can be that guy.
00:17:41
At the very least, I like the length and size I really beyond that. I won't.
00:17:45
You know I won't lie and say I have a ton of film study on this guy.
00:17:48
But it will be interesting to see when he gets on the field, because I think the first thing with any of these guys that we said over the first three weeks ago I test right.
00:17:56
And just when you're watching the game, you go, boy Valentine really getting turned around there or Oh, man, why do I keep seeing 30 trailing across the field behind Receiver X, and that that is usually the first time where you say, Now, let's take a look at those numbers.
00:18:09
So if Harper gets on the field this week, we'll keep our eyes open and we'll see what he looks like in what will be, ah, difficult matchup against the Rams.
00:18:16
Yeah, you know, the way that I think about it is.
00:18:18
This, citing just kind of reaffirms that the Giants don't have that faith in Balentine.
00:18:22
It just doesn't seem like they look at him as a long term solution.
00:18:26
And they're really just trying to get someone to, you know, be on the opposite side of Bradbury.
00:18:31
That, you said is is competent that can stand his ground.
00:18:34
We know that they're going to give up some plays.
00:18:35
There's not just all pro cornerbacks just sitting on the waiver wire that we can we can scoop up from someone else's practice squad.
00:18:40
Um, but so for me, I think, um, more than happy to bring in another guy, see if we can catch lightning in a bottle and find someone that can stand up to it and stay on the active roster. But me.
00:18:52
To me, this speaks more about Valentine not being in, you know, necessarily in the future plans.
00:18:56
As of right now, you know, and then thinking about Darnay Holmes is a longer term project, cause he's struggling a little bit, you know, in his first couple of games, more than I think he even speaks the Harper himself.
00:19:07
Yeah, 100% which is unfortunate, and then you factor that into the Dave Gettleman situation and re evaluating his draft selections.
00:19:14
And now, if you throw Valentine potentially into the mix there, along with a DeAndre, Bakers is being Mrs.
00:19:20
And if you throw in Sam Bill to that category now, cornerbacks have been a real area of struggle for Gettleman toe.
00:19:26
Have success through the draft through the waiver wire, etcetera, to find a compliment across the way from Bradbury.
00:19:32
The final piece and really the biggest piece that we wanted to focus on here on Wednesday show is, of course, the offensive line.
00:19:39
You came out this week here and heard from Joe Judge.
00:19:42
That said, Listen, there is work we have to do and we have to improve as a team hinted that there could be an opportunity, uh, that for a switch up or changes to be made across this offensive line, the key staff to think about in regards to these potential changes are that Daniel Jones have been pressured 41 a half percent of his drop acts, which is third in the NFL.
00:20:03
So when you talk about as we highlight the start, right, Daniel Jones and what we expect out of this players he's developing.
00:20:10
And now, right now, week number four.
00:20:12
This officially will mark his second season of games, right 17th game for him of his career.
00:20:18
When you when you think about it from that standpoint, you want to at least be giving him the opportunity to have success.
00:20:23
And right now you're not doing that behind this offensive line.
00:20:26
When we look there, Andy, what what are your? Where's the first spot that you think of that? You could see change? I think we we hone in on the same kind of area, this offensive line and a little bit surprising relative to where are, Let's say again, I test would have told us on a week to week basis.
00:20:42
So until we get this fixed, can we just call our offensive line? Are offensive line because they are offensive right now in terms of giving up pressures to Daniel Jones can do that.
00:20:54
You are.
00:20:55
I'm a wordsmith.
00:20:58
Adam and I can't contain myself.
00:21:00
But when we talk about where we go on the offensive line, you know there's there's two areas that that I think, uh, you know, we looked at Camp Fleming originally in Week one.
00:21:10
He did not play well.
00:21:11
I mean, we can we can all admit it.
00:21:13
But, you know, if you start looking at some of the advanced metrics, he's actually played a little bit better the last couple of weeks.
00:21:19
Even though the eye test you feel like there's rushes off of the, you know, Daniel Jones is right side constantly.
00:21:26
You know, when you talk about, you know, we always say on the show, you know, football, focus.
00:21:30
Grades are not the Beale and all.
00:21:32
They are just one data point in which we use, but they are just a good reference point to be able to say, Where do we think people are compared to our eye test? And right now, across the offensive line, Nick Gates is the worst ranked offensive lineman at a 49.
00:21:46
7, which is not very good.
00:21:50
It's not even competent.
00:21:52
It's not middle of the road.
00:21:53
It's it's pretty bad when you talk about, you know, offensive linemen and Adam.
00:21:57
I think you know when we talk about Gates, is it that he's still getting comfortable? Is it that he's only played three games as a center and that we need to give him more time there.
00:22:07
Or is there something Mawr that you're seeing? What you're just saying? You know, we could give him 13 more games at center, and it's not gonna work here.
00:22:15
Yeah, I mean, he said this week when asked, he's looking forward to the matchup against Donald and saying, Hey, listen, as you said, Iron sharpens iron and he likes matching up against the best players because it means you get a chance to improve.
00:22:26
And that's the way that you get better.
00:22:28
Is taking on those big tasks.
00:22:29
Well, I'll answer that question with a bit of a question.
00:22:34
Do you think that Will? Hernandez is maybe showing significant regression at the left guard position because, to your point, he grades out of the 50.
00:22:44
6, and this is kind of speaks Thio.
00:22:47
We're honing in on center and left guard is potentially actually being the biggest issues right now on the offensive line, understanding the growing pains you expected to see from Andrew Thomas and so not unlike what you had pointed too often when we spoke about Nate solder right, you would always said, Well, you know, But what's happening alongside these players, how is how is the player next to him performing and that could directly impact him? So if I look at what I've seen from Hernandez over his career to start and what I saw from Nick Gates at right tackle and right guard when he filled in last year, I would say, at least on paper, Nick Gates has already shown the higher upside.
00:23:22
Now, is that a new position? And I wonder if maybe he's being negatively impacted by having a guy who's supposed to, at the very least, and we said this right Hernandez is supposed to be the guy that you lean on in the run game, and that's actually been the worst of his two categories has actually been really bad in run and actually respectable or decent in pass protection.
00:23:41
So I I don't know that that's the really hard part about it.
00:23:44
I think that unfortunately Nick Gates, it was put into a very difficult spot switching positions like this in this off season, so I would lean over to say you want to give him more time and yet there's also ways that maybe you improve this line by shifting pieces? Yes, and this is really the crux of our discussion today in terms off.
00:24:07
Well, if you make a change, where is the change? And now we could be crazy and just say, blow the whole thing up and bring, you know, four or five new guys in and just across the board.
00:24:15
Let's try the second, you know, the second grouping here, but I think we have to be a little bit smarter about the changes that we make.
00:24:22
I think you brought up a really good point, Adam, when you talk about Hernandez and how Yeah, we talked about how bad Nate Nate solder had looked.
00:24:29
We talked about how jalape o didn't look great.
00:24:32
We talked about how Spencer pull.
00:24:34
You didn't look great with one common thread with all these different guys.
00:24:37
You know, Andrew Thomas is struggling a little bit.
00:24:39
Nick Gates is struggling a little bit.
00:24:41
There is one consistency that sits between both of those positions for the last couple of years, and that is Will Hernandez.
00:24:46
And, you know, we're expecting him.
00:24:49
Thio continue to get better, and he's not getting better.
00:24:52
He's not.
00:24:53
And so you know, Yeah, This is kind of crazy to me that it's been multiple years of seeing Hernandez and we keep saying We're waiting for the breakout.
00:25:01
We're waiting for the breakout.
00:25:02
We're waiting for him to mature into a guy that's a stalwart of the offensive line.
00:25:06
And to me, he's probably the first area that I go to now when I think about making a move, well, you know, we talk about Cam Fleming and and for all of you know, the challenges that we think he has, he may not be a long term solution.
00:25:19
He's a traditional swing tackle that usually is better at plug, plug and play.
00:25:24
I would actually leave him out there, you know, and wait for a pert to develop and think about making a change mawr around Hernandez and seeing if someone like Shane Lemieux, who you drafted, can come in and compete You.
00:25:36
You really liked what you saw at a Shane Long.
00:25:38
You were kind of saying that he has the flexibility to move around the offensive line wherever you want, but I'm just curious if we move Hernandez out and Shane Lemieux in.
00:25:47
If that actually improves both Thomas and Gates in what they need to be doing on the left side.
00:25:53
You know what I did not anticipate? As we we usually collect ourselves on our show notes of what we're gonna go over.
00:25:59
But I didn't anticipate you going that way with what the adjustment was going to be that you would make to this line.
00:26:04
It's not a terrible way to look at it, man.
00:26:06
This is a guy in Lamu that they think it could be guard or center, right? They potentially you say we test out Nick Gates, and if it doesn't work, then we can always sample them.
00:26:15
You next year at the center position as well.
00:26:17
But maybe you're right.
00:26:18
You know, the big thing, as you were as you were talking about Hernandez, there is This isn't your number two.
00:26:23
This is your three for him.
00:26:24
So by this point, even a lot of times what we've been saying with young players here as well listen really weird off season, right? Not a lot of time now.
00:26:32
It is a new system, and that's great.
00:26:33
Well, your natural skill set should already be there.
00:26:36
If you're an offensive lineman a year.
00:26:38
Number three, right? So that's a really honestly, that's a really enticing move, man.
00:26:43
I don't know.
00:26:46
You know, Joe judging the coaching staff that that that's reflective off where, where he was drafted and how the organization fields and staying true to him, I think, to your point, like, Hey, take a chance.
00:26:57
Right? Okay, this is your three.
00:26:59
You drafted him.
00:27:00
It didn't work.
00:27:01
Maybe it's not working out now if he comes back strong at some point along the way, good for him.
00:27:04
But maybe you catch a little lightning in the bottle with with a with a Lamu, and it gives you an opportunity toe.
00:27:10
Open things up a little bit, especially in the run game.
00:27:12
And that's what we think Lamu can be for this offensive line.
00:27:16
That's a man that's a really that's a really interesting thought.
00:27:18
Well, listen, I don't know because the other thing that we had yeah, if you want, if you want to take this even further, why this makes the most sense of any move across the offensive line is because when I when I talked to John fans and I talked to the listeners with show.
00:27:30
They come back to me and they say, Well, Andy, you know what? The easiest thing is Nick Gates has the worst.
00:27:35
Pff.
00:27:36
Let's kick him out to right tackle where he showed.
00:27:39
You know, flashes of being come more than competent.
00:27:42
We'll get Camp Fleming out of there, and we'll bring in our old trusty friend named Spencer Poli to be at the center position and that will That will be our resolution.
00:27:51
And my answer to that is Nick Gates has a 49.
00:27:54
7 Pff rating.
00:27:56
He hasn't been great, but guess what? Spencer Pulley last year had a 48.7.
00:28:02
We already know what we're getting from Spencer Pouliot the center position.
00:28:05
And it's the downside.
00:28:07
It's the lowest end of what we're seeing from Nick Gates after three games of experience.
00:28:10
So to me, you know, making that move while camp plumbing looked, you know, pretty terrible.
00:28:15
In Week one against the Steelers, he's actually started to turn it around a little bit, and the and the ****ytics are proving that out.
00:28:22
So, for me, trading out gates for pulley doesn't really improve the center position, and you're kicking camp Fleming out to the right, and you're now changing things up with Nick Gates, where he's been practicing at center all year long to keep some consistency around this line.
00:28:35
Just make the change on Hernandez, who clearly is struggling right now in all facets of the game.
00:28:40
Especially, he's supposed to be strong in the run game.
00:28:42
He is not doing that right now.
00:28:44
So to me, the simple answer is trade a like for like don't switch all of these different things across the offensive line.
00:28:50
And let's see if that helps Gates or it helps Andrew Thomas because they're not getting as much pressure as they were before.
00:28:56
Yeah, to your point, people have mentioned to about the pressures that Thomas has allowed off.
00:29:01
That left side there, obviously, second most in the league right now.
00:29:04
I believe it 13 or 14 and you and you understand that you know that those lumps, they're gonna come early in his career.
00:29:09
But what what is your what? Your plan is switching it.
00:29:12
Some people have said so put him over the right side where there's less pressure and he doesn't have to worry about, you know, developing as much to your point, they go.
00:29:19
OK, but now who? You're putting it left tackle.
00:29:21
What's your solution? There.
00:29:22
Now you're gonna flip your foot Ken Fleming over there because he's played okay or respectable like you're not solving a problem.
00:29:27
You're kind of just moving where the issue lies.
00:29:29
On top of that, your point around consistency when Joe judge says, Listen, we may look to make changes.
00:29:37
They're not gonna rip out three starters, you know, we're putting in pulley and we're moving Nick Gates and we're also, by the way, we're moving Nick Gates, the left tackle, and we're something Thomas over right tackle.
00:29:48
We're gonna have three guys in three new positions.
00:29:50
Doing an incremental switch makes a lot of sense because then you kinda identify if I take out Hernandez and I put in Lamu.
00:29:58
Let's get a little sample size. Let's take a look.
00:30:00
How is this about now? I'll do devils advocate.
00:30:02
I like I like where you're coming from With it, I will say you run the risk potentially if you're the Giants of saying What if Lemme is not ready, right? What if he's not ready to step in and we burn out a young draft prospect over this sample size because he just starts getting pummeled, right? And we just break the guy.
00:30:21
I think that that's okay, by the way.
00:30:22
Like I'm But I'm just, you know, putting out that idea of how much do you want to protect these players? Because to that point, I think that if you say you make that switch and it goes even, respectively, with Lemieux there, I'll say this the long term solution over the course of this season.
00:30:37
Maybe at some point, you d c pert get inserted for Fleming, Not about Fleming's play, but just because you're ready to roll into this younger player right tackle.
00:30:44
And then additionally, the extra effort.
00:30:47
The extra option that you end up getting is Hernandez.
00:30:50
You're gonna be our swing backup guard now, and you're going to start to get reps on both left and right guard.
00:30:55
We know Zidler isn't long term for the Giants, So maybe Hernandez develops and develops nicely behind him and then going into big picture next season, you say, Hey, Hernandez, you're gonna be on the right side now at the guard spot.
00:31:08
Maybe that's better for you.
00:31:10
Maybe it just works better for you.
00:31:11
Now That's asking a lot of guys switching from one side of the other muscle memory and all those things.
00:31:15
But at least you're giving a chance for Hernandez to still have an opportunity, a part of this team and find a spot here.
00:31:20
It's a risk reward.
00:31:22
I don't think that you would say, and I'm super confident and putting in Lamu, but I I think that the Giants, at this 10.
00:31:28
0, and three, we all know the stat lines about what it means for playoff implications and more importantly than any of that, what we've seen is faras pressure on Daniel Jones.
00:31:36
Let's tweak it piece by piece and see what options plug in you very well may see the Giants and Joe Judge say this week we're going to give them you a shot, right? Okay, let's see what it looks like if he plays even close to what we've gotten from Hernandez.
00:31:50
Not a high bar, he's going to get at least another week or two if we see the gates continues to struggle it center.
00:31:56
Maybe you do see pulley, even though I wouldn't prefer it Maybe Pulley does get a run there to see if those connection of players work better.
00:32:04
Who works the best as the collection of offensive linemen? The only other wrinkle I guess you could throw in there is to say we theoretically thought that Lamu was going to become a center.
00:32:15
It was going to become a center out of as a guard out of college, and I wonder if depending how long they go.
00:32:21
And if Fernandez tweaks or gets better at all, then you would say, If we don't see the results from Nick Gates, technically, you could look that direction as well.
00:32:29
I think that that's too big a verse reward, and I also think it's easier to judge and feel like it's a known thing with Hernandez Right now.
00:32:37
I feel like it's too early to know what Nick Gates is at center after a position change.
00:32:41
Well, And also, Nick Gates has had just a pandemic offseason to get ready to be the center, and the Giants liked what they saw from him and camp enough to give him a contract extension.
00:32:52
So, you know, for for him he's kind of locked in at a za piece of this offensive line, you know, I'll be it.
00:32:58
It's It's not crippling financially for the New York Giants, if they ever needed to move on from the gates.
00:33:03
But they've invested in him, and three games isn't gonna fully change that.
00:33:06
They're invested in Andrew Thomas.
00:33:08
Three games of hurries isn't gonna change that For me.
00:33:10
This is like you said Year three of Hernandez.
00:33:13
If he's not getting the job done in the thing that he's supposed to excel at, then we need to look other places.
00:33:18
And I'm fine machine.
00:33:19
Lemieux potentially being center.
00:33:21
But you already paid the money to the gates to be there.
00:33:23
You haven't committed long term to Hernandez.
00:33:25
To me, that's the easiest, simplest like for like transition.
00:33:29
The Giants could dio without taking all this and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
00:33:33
Like to me, let's make one adjustment.
00:33:35
Let's see if it has an impact across the entire offensive line and and and hope for the best.
00:33:41
You know, the last footnote that I'll give about the offensive line because we haven't really mentioned Ziegler's name very much is that he is struggling in terms of his standards as well.
00:33:52
He's a He's a 64.
00:33:53
8 on the pro football focus ratings.
00:33:55
I believe he's never been lower than a 71 so he's significantly lower than what were we expect from Settler.
00:34:01
But because everywhere else has holes, you know, he ends up looking like the best one in terms of of grading, but certainly not to the level that we expect from him and Adam.
00:34:12
My question to you is, Is that just a product of everyone around him struggling so much that he's not getting a chance toe, Just do his one job? Or is it? You know, a regression that we should be worried about? I would I would tend to think that because you just brought in camp.
00:34:26
Fleming again.
00:34:27
Beat this thing through the entire episode here.
00:34:31
Random offseason, not the traditional one.
00:34:33
So how much continuity do you have with Cam Flemming? And even though you have familiarity with Nick yet, having played it right tackle, he's now on your left side of the center position.
00:34:42
So continuity, maybe an issue there and the fact that he's still playing pretty solid while we're talking about Nick Gates struggling early on, I I tend to lean in the direction off.
00:34:52
This is a product of the guys around him right now trying to get their feet underneath them and feel comfortable around.
00:34:56
It s so I'm willing todo I give him the season because to your point about making the change, what you do then have is, of course, would be rookie and Andrew Thomas at left tackle, rookie and Shane Lamu it left guard and first year center in Nick Gates in the middle of this line.
00:35:14
So you would be talking about putting a lot of young talent out there.
00:35:17
But as I said in the preseason, as I said through training camp the second that pert shows you enough to be even close to what Cam Fleming is.
00:35:27
You make that switch this season because you want to get him those reps.
00:35:30
And if you're telling me that Fleming's been, you know, serviceable in all right, a soon as you think that pert could be serviceable in all right, this year you put him in a swell, and then you're talking about having all the young talent, all these young players that you drafted getting experienced this year and understanding it's not about what we're doing this season.
00:35:47
But then, maybe by week 13 14 15 all of a sudden you say, Boy, look, how are running? Game has kind of come around with some of these guys.
00:35:53
Look how the protection the pressure percentages has dropped over the course of the season on Daniel Jones.
00:35:58
So that's what you're looking for with some of these moves, and you have to be willing Thio risk something to get the reward of it.
00:36:05
And it may be risking losing Hernandez because, by the way, third year draft in the second round, it means you can pick up his fourth year option, right, if that's how I'm pretty sure that's how that contract works out.
00:36:16
If you're in the first round, you get that extra year of control.
00:36:18
So by being in the second round that you're coming up on it.
00:36:21
So you know, where are you in terms of staying, committed and invested in Hernandez, you have to be willing to evaluate everything and know that that changes you.
00:36:29
Maybe didn't expect last year could be coming sooner than we anticipated.
00:36:33
No risk.
00:36:34
It no biscuit.
00:36:35
Adam that is the name of the game.
00:36:36
And you know what they say.
00:36:38
They always say that about the biscuits.
00:36:40
And you know what? The last thing I'll say about the offensive line? There is concerns.
00:36:43
If you do decide to put in Lamu how young the left side is.
00:36:46
But guess what? Last year we had veteran leader Nate Solder on the left side.
00:36:50
We had second year promise out of Nick, you know, out of Will Hernandez.
00:36:54
Then at the center position, we had stalwarts like John Jalape O and Spencer pulling in there.
00:36:59
And guess what? We were not very good.
00:37:01
So So for me, it's like, Okay, we could have more veterans.
00:37:04
But at this point, if we're already looking for the future, let's get these guys out there and see what we have and know with a lot of dollars in the free agent market, whether or not we need to address the position again or if we have something for the future.
00:37:16
And to me, the biggest indictment or red flag around Hernandez is that you had solder and you have jalopy.
00:37:22
Oh, and you didn't look so good.
00:37:24
Now you have Thomas and Now you have Gates and you look even worse and you can say it's impacted by the guys around you.
00:37:30
But I can still also look just that you and I can say that it's not going so well the same way you looking slightly and you go listen, does he looked a little bit.
00:37:37
Is that the numbers Not looking strong this year? Maybe, but he hasn't fallen off a cliff the way that we're seeing from Hernandez.
00:37:43
So unfortunately, that could be a swing and a miss.
00:37:45
And at that point you'd be talking about some really indictments around Dave Gettleman and reconstructing that offensive line and just what's happened.
00:37:53
Up to this point, maybe by the end of the year, we're talking about the Thomases, Lemieux's and parts of the world, and everything looks a lot different.
00:37:59
As far as how we feel about our, uh, I don't know are, are are on the hot seat.
00:38:04
GM is probably putting it lightly.
00:38:06
Wouldn't it be ironic if the hog Mali's end up doing in David Gettleman God, well, listen ironic for him? Yes, but from a Giants fans perspective, it was irony would not be the first word that came to mind it Would you know something around a Dumpster and lit matches that would be borderline where I was at that.
00:38:28
We'll get out of here on that.
00:38:29
That's what I knew.
00:38:30
We were going to spend a lot of our time talking about this offensive line.
00:38:32
We've really interested to see if any of these changes come to Joe Judges Point, he was saying, As we work our way through the week of practice, if someone showing it, then we're going to get the shot.
00:38:42
So whether it is Shane Lamu getting a look here and by the way, I don't know what the switch up could be, this is actually the last wrinkle I want to throw out.
00:38:50
I'm sorry that we have to circle back to it.
00:38:53
If you think that Shane Lamu is best suited to slide into right guard, would you flip flops Zeitler over to the left side? Now I know what you're talking about about continuity, but I'm just thinking about saying if we feel like settlers, drop off is really about Gates getting better and what Fleming is doing just talking about trying to get the right combination that offers you the best ability for every player.
00:39:17
So maybe Zettler then in turn, helps Thomas right on the left side.
00:39:22
And then Fleming, as a veteran, is helping LEM you on the right side that now that's multiple spots, and I'm not a I'm not an automatic there.
00:39:30
I don't go.
00:39:31
And that makes a lot of sense, because slipping swapping positions like that for players is not an easy task.
00:39:36
But it's just something that I do start to marinate on here in terms of trying to spread out and mitigate the risk reward of young players on the line.
00:39:43
My simple answer to that is I want to diagnose the problem and not just put Band AIDS across the offensive line.
00:39:50
If we take a like for, like move with Hernandez for Shane Lamu, we will very quickly see whether or not that is the problem is it's, you know, it's like running tests and diagnostics to see if that is the issue.
00:40:01
Because if Shane Lamu struggles and he looks like Hernandez and and Gates continues to struggle on, Thomas continues to struggle, then okay, it's not just Hernandez, but if things do change and it does look good for Shane Lamu.
00:40:12
We've identified the area that we need to fix.
00:40:15
We've made changes and across the offensive line we've gotten better.
00:40:18
So I wouldn't shake things up and move multiple positions around just yet because then you don't know which is the causation or the correlation.
00:40:25
When you start making some of these different moves, you have 100%.
00:40:28
So but this is This is the way my mind goes.
00:40:29
The wheels start to turn and I start playing musical chairs with the entire offensive line.
00:40:33
And before you know it, I've got Can Fleming at center.
00:40:36
You know that, Z, if you give me enough time, I can get there.
00:40:40
We'll talk yourself into it.
00:40:42
Yes. Telling me there's a chance anyway.
00:40:44
Is there anything else though, Man, Just in general, How are we feeling right now? I tried to reset myself.
00:40:49
Monday was a rough episode as we wrap this Wednesday show up here.
00:40:53
We will be back in on Friday and we're gonna have a nice guest spot covering the Rams.
00:40:57
So we continue our crossover work in our matchup previews.
00:41:00
But do you come into this now because I very much got into evaluation mode of this roster.
00:41:07
I very much now.
00:41:08
I'm on a week to week basis and it's like saying, Bring in Lamu, bring in pert.
00:41:12
Uh, that's where I am right now on this team.
00:41:14
Are you still holding out optimism? You kind of set it on on Mondays on Monday's show, where you said, Well, you know, But still, you got that nice stretch with the Washington football team and a bad Philly team and the Cincinnati Bangles.
00:41:26
You gave me some some inclination that you still see winds in this schedule here, whereas I I'm just on full blown scouting.
00:41:36
Let me let me know if this if you're bringing a kid from Las Vegas, Okay, let's see if you could be our starting cornerback.
00:41:42
That's all that I'm looking at now, until I see some real proof that you can move the ball effectively that you can put up points, we're trending in the wrong direction on a week to week basis.
00:41:51
16 13 9.
00:41:53
I mean, you're talking about what? Five.
00:41:54
We're getting five points this week.
00:41:56
It's like how much lower can this offensive side of the ball go where do you stand right now? What's the mental check in here? And and, by the way, don't go to extreme because we are going to do our quarter of the season review of a lot of guys and breaking down what we like and don't like.
00:42:11
But are you still telling me there's a chance The Philadelphia Eagles are not benching Carson Wentz because they feel like they still have a shot in the division and they don't have a win yet.
00:42:22
And they actually have a division loss.
00:42:24
And they're saying we know that Carson once might look like the worst quarterback in the league right now, but we're not giving up on him because we still have a shot.
00:42:32
The Giants are a half game behind the Eagles, and they haven't even played a division game yet.
00:42:36
I know it is crazy to think that in Oh, and three team that has looked as poorly as the Giants have looked has any shot, but I will give the silver lining here for giant fans.
00:42:47
We have not played a division game yet.
00:42:49
The division winner is probably going to get to seven wins, maybe eight wins.
00:42:54
We're not talking about having to get to 10 wins or 12 wins, like in some of these other divisions.
00:42:59
The Rams game is going to be a challenge.
00:43:01
We will highlight our predictions Right now.
00:43:04
It looks like the Giants opened as a 13 13.
00:43:06
5 point underdog.
00:43:08
So there almost touchdown e Yeah, God Road.
00:43:14
So it's It's no.
00:43:16
No one is expecting anything from the Giants to go out to Los Angeles and get a win, especially with how good the Rams have looked.
00:43:22
You know they have two wins.
00:43:23
They lost one game against Buffalo at Buffalo.
00:43:26
That really it was kind of a coin flip pass interference.
00:43:29
Was it? Was it not? You know, and they have a dominant pass rusher in Aaron.
00:43:33
Donald, that is not gonna make our line look better.
00:43:35
And if you think about where the Giants have been, you're talking about having Thio deal with, but do pre TJ Watt.
00:43:42
You're talking about having to deal with Khalil Mack, and now you're talking about having to deal with Aaron Donald like it doesn't get easier for the Giants on the line.
00:43:50
It also, if you're expecting a turnaround regardless of changes.
00:43:53
It's probably not gonna be this week, But listen, if the giant Cowboys or Washington listen, I'm just, you know, the Cowboys have shown that they can give up points.
00:44:04
Their defense is not nearly any of the defense is that we've played so far in terms off the.
00:44:10
They haven't shown that they could score any points.
00:44:12
I agree with all that, but if you're looking for a silver lining, it's that this is going to be a very difficult game for the Giants.
00:44:21
We finally get into division games after this game against the Rams.
00:44:25
If we find a way to win the Rams game, that gives us even more momentum, obviously, going into the division.
00:44:30
But even if we just look competitive and we come out against the Cowboys, if we get a win against the Cowboys and we're one in four, but 1 to in the division, we're actually still alive in this whole thing, which is crazy to think about so giant fans.
00:44:43
We are in evaluation mode, but don't give up hope yet.
00:44:46
Maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle with one of these moves or changes and we can at least fight in what is clearly the worst division in all of football.
00:44:54
Shout out to, ah DPM Ray over SportsCastr who jumped in on the chat and has just been peppering, peppering me and us with.
00:45:03
There's nothing sweeter than a long form conversation around the offensive line.
00:45:06
I know this is so we've really we've had a hell of an episode breaking it all down, and but I've been to his point, though.
00:45:12
Man, he's right on board with you.
00:45:13
Eight wins could, you know, take this division right now and it's interesting to think about how bad it's been, how brutal it's been and yet how you can still managed to make this season at least interesting.
00:45:26
And that's what we talked about the beginning the year, right? All I want is it to be an interesting season.
00:45:30
It hasn't.
00:45:31
It has been interesting for the first three weeks, not in the way that I would have hoped, but it has been interesting.
00:45:35
It'd just be nice to see them find a way to get a couple of wins or at least see everybody else in the division keep losing so that we continue to somehow be scoring sub 10 points and remaining competitive.
00:45:46
That being the case, I can tell friends by the empty Moose cup of coffee.
00:45:51
That's all the time we have.
00:45:52
We will, of course, be back in on Friday will highlight the Rams matchup.
00:45:56
We'll have our surprise guest crossover content there as well, so join us for that.
00:46:01
Follow us on social media at one giant podcast and over on SportsCastr live streaming three days a week.
00:46:06
Monday Wednesday, Friday at 8:30 a.m.
00:46:09
and, of course, download rate review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get those sweet, sweet needs fulfilled.
00:46:14
And as Andrew Mackiewicz would like you to know, as always, Let's go Big Blue Bang!

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