Welcome back into the one giant podcast coming to You live on the sports caster stream who want to go ahead and jump in here following the Sunday football match up against the Chicago Bears.
Obviously came on and did a little bit of a preview highlighting Some of the players have been going through those roster moves as we've been discussing.
A little bit of a cold here under the weather had to make difficult choices yesterday was out out on the weekend.
Had to decide between a Giants game and covering that on SportsCastr and then also doing by Brooklyn Nets coverage.
I went with the Nets because the Giants are struggling at two and eight now two and nine and uh, certainly was more interesting game.
The crosstown rivals between the New York Knicks and the Brooklyn Nets.
That being said, I didn't want to come in and just give a recap of this game later today you can head over and check out the one giant podcast and immaculate, and I who ah, made an appearance there on the we got next podcast coverage of that game.
We also went in and recorded our podcast with our reaction piece on this game.
So I won't go too much into detail on things that I think we covered.
They're basically I want to run through the stat lines that we see and this will just be up.
I'm assuming more for people on the back and to take a look at we may come on again later tonight, Uh, possibly in the back end of the Monday night matchup.
Do what we did last Thursday in that Texas Colts game where we checked in on some players that we think the Giants may want to target in free agency.
We'll do the same thing for the one tonight so you can check back in with us later today and see if there's anybody that we maybe think that is presenting themselves in tonight's matchup.
That then they're trying to take a look at here because obviously there's some holes to fill.
Ah, as we get into this match up here for the New York football giants, it's a 1914 loss.
There's some similar themes that we talked about in previous ah, previous reviews.
You know, this is a team that offensively has just struggled to have its rhythm.
You know something that we didn't touch a ton on in the podcast.
We and I actually discuss this a little bit more after we were done recording, and that is around this offensive line and where we think the issues are.
We mentioned this in different areas throughout our coverage.
A CE faras Nate soldier is concerned.
That's been identified as being one of the key problems that if you go back a couple of SportsCastr streams, I highlight this offensive line went into the pro football focus rating on these players, and we weren't really sure.
Right? You go through this offensive on you're talking about essentially the best.
Read a player being Zeitler there, right guard over 70 on Pro football Focus.
And then the weakest link from a rating standpoint would be jalape o in the middle of that line there sub 60 for the season.
You go outside and you talk about the tackles there in that same kind of area.
Rumors and sorry and soldier the issue, then being, of course, Hernandez and where he's been rating and what the long term future is for a young player that you think still is a high upside.
But we have seen times in games where he's been called back on his heels.
And certainly we saw that on Sunday as well.
You don't The thing that Andy and I kind of got in on the back end of this game was you talk about how soldier gets beaten, you get beat again in this one in a big spot, it's Ah, Khalil Mack coming around the edge on him gets the Strip fumble.
We used to a very short field in a touchdown for the Chicago Bears.
You combine that with the two missed field goals for the New York Giants, and certainly you can see how that could lead to a 14 19 loss as a posed to what could have been a 20 to 13 game late.
And that seeing if you could force Stravinsky tohave to win a game for you, what was he gonna be able to d'oh? Uh, one of the things that we do go into on the podcast was highlighting where these stat lines bore out.
And when you talk about a team in the Chicago Bears that had their question mark in and around Mitchell's Robiskie.
We dive inside these numbers, and it's interesting because you talked about Daniel Jones and saying 100 50 yards obviously isn't acceptable It through for a chunk of those on one drive there in the third or fourth quarter 21 of 36 finishes with an 86.
Q b r of just 43.6.
For what it's worth. Ah, but how that u touchdowns.
Just a very disjointed game from this offense. Overall.
On the other side of things, though.
Bad rating for Mitchell Chediski at 69 but his Q B are actually collectively higher.
Then Daniel Jones, at 51.
1 but did throw two interceptions, took two sacks in this game, threw for 278 yards in spite of the fact that they only had a total of 65 rushing yards.
So you know to sit here now and say that if you had gotten in a difficult situation where Travis Key had to go and win one for you, I could go either way with it, right? The defense did force a couple turnovers, so Maybe that would have been an opportunity there for them, but nevertheless, it falls by the wayside.
The Giants don't have that opportunity because they missed the field goals, because again, Daniel Jones has a fumble that leads to an easy offensive possession of for the Chicago Bears.
Now Soldier gives up that sack.
One of the things that and and I talked about after recording was this offensive line and trying to go back and remember, And I'm gonna go back in and watch this game a bit more and then we'll highlight.
I'll come back on later tonight and I'll touch on this, you know? Where did they stand in terms of pressure up the middle versus pressure pressure off the edge? We all know that by and large, nine sacks given up from the soldier on this season to this point that it has been coming around that left side, the blinds I where you expect most the pressure to be coming from a defense and it hasn't been good enough from this performance of I need Soldier over the course of the season.
But then also how often this is an anti macro its credit here has Daniel Jones had the opportunity to take that 3 to 5 step drop, look to assess his first or second option and then make the choice to step up into the pocket and commit to where he wants to throw? I think more often than not you go back and find that he's been rolling out of the pocket to get away from pressure or dropping 3 to 5 steps and then having to basically keep himself right where he is, make his choice of throw and then pull the trigger on it.
So it is interesting.
It's almost not.
Maybe it's a little obvious, but I think a lot of the flak is going for soldier as he has been giving up nine sacks now, but also how appeals Negative rating over on pro football focus could indicate that.
That's where you're also seeing pressure.
As we move through this offensive line, we also think about if Zeitler is strong, maybe he's helping to elevate it.
Play of Bremer's on the right at the right tackle position don't know how we feel about rumors over always on a one year contract.
I assume you move on from him you don't bring him back, but you never know.
Maybe he gets another better minimum.
I think that Gates is probably a guy that you think it plays serviceable enough.
It is so much younger that you take the chance on him going into next season.
You move down a lot.
Your legs I Taylor, he's plugged in there.
Now you're trying to figure out is you know, is jalopy oh affecting Hernandez and his soldier affecting Hernandez Or a soldier who has a 67 reading on pro football.
Focus is probably muddling in the middle toe back half their of left tackles in the league.
But I could go around two teams like the Bangles, like the Dolphins even like the Jets.
You know, there's gonna be a number of roster like and go to and show you.
Ah, left tackle is not rate even as highly a soldier.
So now it's How is jalopy? Oh, sorry is he has jalopy on then Hernandez impacting soldier's ability.
Annie Mack was brought up an interesting point in regards to soldier.
Do you consider the idea because of what you're paying him? Do you maybe think about making him one of the most overpaid right tackles in the league next season because you're locked into the number there rather than eating dead cap space.
And then you go into the draft, you get a job, you get Thomas on Joe Thompson, you get a Thomas, you plug him rate in there, he becomes your starter there, left tackle.
And now you see how it plays out with Nate Soldier knowing that you have Gates behind him in the swing tackle position and potentially, if you need to make a move, you make a move.
But we've added this one around a long time after this game yesterday.
And ultimately I do have to say, I'd probably come out on the side of Annie Mack.
Was that you? You know, as much as we all may want to move on from Soldier, I think in some regards, you know, unless you're gonna get what, 1/4 round pick for him, which I don't know if that's even remotely feasible.
I think maybe as Andy was saying, closer with six might be something you could look to get from someone.
Is that worth it to be elegant, to go to move on from him or you consider Ki Beom because you're still gonna have to eat some amount of money next year.
Ah, $4 million roster signing bonus.
Part of it is going to be eaten by the Giants, no matter where he goes in a trade.
So you're still gonna be on the hook for a chunk of change.
That's an interesting, uh, big picture Thought.
I apologize it It's been a It's been a rough.
We're in the thing.
We're finally getting to this winter season, and it's taken its toll on me diving deeper inside these numbers again.
We do highlight some of this stuff, obviously big struggles from the running game.
17 for 59 for Barkley.
Long of 22 though.
So there's a lot of issues there.
I think, by and large we are talking about a player that still isn't 100% so the expectations can't be too high on him for the remainder of the season.
And again, with the offensive struggles front of them, we go into the receiving corps.
Think this bullet spread around nicely.
But as you start to work through it, you do think about who are the players that you expect to be here next season.
They were catching balls and Scott Simon's and gets catches one here in this.
As he fills in taking Smith, you basically comes out of nowhere to be on.
This roster ends of catching five balls for only 17 yards.
Sterling Shepard five balls for only 15 yards.
So you know this offense could not find a rhythm against the defense that we highlighted in our crossover podcast with the Bear report is certainly played a high level in spite of what feels like a regression for them from the previous season.
Still a strong defense, and they obviously were able to execute here more often than not in this game.
Defensively, right again.
Big picture at the half.
The Giants are up 73 in this one.
So the first time in a long time this defense doesn't give up a lead Early doesn't put the offense unnecessarily a big hole, but against a tough defense, it still doesn't bear out over the course of the game.
You want to see the Giants maybe have a little more success moving the ball.
A lot of the chatter also that what I was seeing post game.
And now going into the day after is about the play calling, and this is one of the ones you go listen to a podcast.
We're not gonna touch on the coaching a lot because we really didn't.
I wasn't putting this at the feet of Pat Shurmur.
I know some people said, You look at the sequence with the third down play and the choice that you make for you go to trust, swing it out.
And then I guess I didn't realize in real time that the idea was a quant.
Barclay was catching that ball on 1/3 down play and then looking to throw it downfield.
I actually that positive, though.
It means the Shermans trying to do something different is trying to mix it up, give this team opportunities to get creative and make some plays.
Ultimately, it comes up short, and some of the things I'm reading online was saying, Well, you know, you gotta sneak Daniel Jones there for the first down or run Barclay up the gut now one that's hindsight to say that you should have done this thing after what could have been a successful trick play quote unquote.
The other part of it is to make that kind of statement that you're going to run it up the gut and pound this football, uh, up down the throat of the Chicago Bears defense, something that the drive have at any six hours doing throughout this year.
Running in between the tackles is also a bit of a farce.
And then the idea that you're going to sneak Daniel Jones up the gut to get you a converted you converted first down.
There also highly unlikely, because you don't know that he has a success rate like a Tom Brady does, and also he has fumble issues.
So are you really trying to send this guy and again into the teeth of a defensive line behind the shaky offensive line to ask him to squeeze one yard out for you? So I really don't put a lot of this on Pat Shurmur in this game.
Overall, I can have my thoughts about Pat Shurmur and where the French I should go.
I've highlighted that on the podcast, certainly, and here just to confirm, I'll say, I do think it's it's, you know, a safe bet that he is not gonna be the guy to lead us into the future.
I don't I think it is reasonable to want to move on from that. However.
Ah, the difficult thing now is saying, Did better show you a little bit of something.
We turned over and looked and watched Julian Love get some action in this one comes up with a lame duck interception as Travis Key tried to get one downfield and came about 12 yards short on his target.
Their valentine gets beaten up in this one in the secondary.
I don't know how troubling that should me, because again, we've highlighted this about Baker.
How do you This is what rookies go through that go through these learning curve struggles and some games they're gonna look competent.
Some games we're gonna look like they're completely lost.
But that's because depending on matchups, you could be getting out schemes, maybe betters and putting them in a great position to have success.
And then maybe you're just seeing different things that you weren't seeing at the college level.
These roll things that have to play out when we when we don't get on the pro football focus on something's numbers.
Well, early returns on Julian Love is positive of fairly positive.
Sam Bill got a little bit of action, and this one early returns on him are pretty strong.
So I think you're gonna get this kind of feedback over these last now five games for the Giants that will help inform how much we need to focus in free agency in the draft.
On the secondary, I still think you're looking at a safety you're looking at, at least probably a cornerback to get in the room with them.
But the question is the Samuel look good enough over his last set of games that you think you could go to the draft and get another young player in there.
Do you think you need a veteran presence? Is your strength is 100% someone moving on from? Are we considering the idea of just letting it play out his contract to keep a little bit of a veteran presence? I lean on the side of moving on from him, but it's hard as you start to see this many holes across the board to identify where you want to go and can you do? Can you accomplish it? We're gonna have a massive amount of cap cities, but we've seen in previous years we federal money and positions and sometimes you over pay for less than what you expect in return.
And then all you have is an overpriced left tackle or maybe an overpriced linebacker in spite of ogle tree making a phenomenal reach back interception there the end zone.
He has looked more athletic this season, having having slimmed down coming into the year.
Then we had seen in Ah, you know, the last season from him.
But again, his contract is gonna run out.
You assume then that money is gonna move on as well on.
Then you start to get into That scenario is we've highlighted on here a little bit. That linebacking corps.
What do we have? Pieces in place.
So, yeah, this is also something if you follow us on Twitter.
I said it in the game, talking with the bear report about this.
The Bears are, ah, decent team having a rough season, right? The defense is playing pretty strong.
Mitchell Travis Key has regressed a little bit.
He's playing through some injuries, so they're a decent team, having a rough year in a tough division with the Vikings and the Packers in there with them as well.
The Giants are a bad scene, having a bad year in a division where now we've actually seen that the Cowboys have been very up and down on inconsistent.
The Eagles have not been able to win consistently, either.
The Redskins are obviously a fairly unmitigated disaster, and all of a sudden you start to look at that and say, even inside of this division were getting blown out by the Cowboys consistently, and there's still a far better team than us.
But, you know, we are not able to compete within a friend of fairly open, mediocre average division.
You know, the Cowboys were probably the only team here that you think can make some headway when it comes to playoff time and probably a team that some would fear having to put face, eh? Top offensive line as they move forward.
But coming off of the loss against the Patriots, one was head scratching plays there late by Jason Garrett.
If you want to go that route with it, uh, this is this is a division that that was more open this year than we thought.
And the Giants are just so far away from even be able to sniff the idea of competition within it that it certainly makes it difficult to look down the road here and see a path that we have.
One of the other things that we did do in real time on the podcast is, well, I won't go over the list of players, But I will say we walk through and try to figure out the core number of guys that you have on this roster currently, that you feel like you're gonna build around, going feller.
And then by that statement, you can start to see how many guys were going to be on their way out.
We'll touch on all turned on the Rosa's pieces.
Well, he misses two field goals in this one.
Oh, it's getting into with one of his friends, Ah, via text, saying that Chicago's kicker is better than Rosa's.
Get rid of Rosa's.
You cut immediately.
This is a probable guy.
Coming into the game, he was 8 to 10 on field goals.
Obviously, he misses too Obviously they're big kicks and their family easy kicks as well, so I can understand the frustration around a kicker like this.
I don't think that any chance they move on from him, necessarily in season, I will see them bring in legitimate competition for him in the off season.
And if he loses out, he loses out and then you cut ties with him.
But, you know, I think you've seen this around the league a lot, too.
There have been miss extra points or have been missed field goals.
It's certainly a position that I think is changing in terms of the approach to where you'll necessarily have these lock down players any more of that role.
It is kind of, Ah, take the results as they come.
Scenario doesn't mean that I'm satisfied with them.
But the Giants haven't been kicking a lot of field goals.
He certainly hasn't had a very good rhythm.
You had the one botched snap by Zak DeOssie, even though Dixon does do a great job of getting that ball up and in position for Rose Austin, make no excuses there from Rosa's in the postgame feels like he needs to make It doesn't make any excuses regarding the wind either.
Um, the punting.
I mean, Good God.
You know, it's a rough season when you're when you're going to get into some of this information around it.
Ah, but I will say from the funding standpoint, this is, you know, Riley Dixon giving you a if you want 10.
4 average all four of his punts went inside the 20 along a 62 got some settled down and checked out in there nicely down inside the 10 on one of those.
By the way, Rose is also kick the ball out of bounds, following and following it, Mister Uh, No.
Out of the out of the second half, starting the second half with a kick out of bounds.
So he has struggled some questions about whether that maybe he's dealing with a little bit of an injury, possibly, and that could play into it.
I'm not gonna give him the excuse in that regard, but I will say it just seems like something about him has been off relative from last season.
Outside of that, the one coaching thing that we can dive into Ah, that I don't think we touched on the podcast, either.
And that was the Mat Nagy choice where he, uh, he keeps his offense out there.
It convinces the Giants to keep their defense on the field.
Then the Chicago Bears quickly throw out.
They're punting unit.
The Giants are unable to make a switch, even though they technically have the legal game right to make the adjustment to their defensive set up.
They don't generous.
Jenkins ends up back there.
He had a kind of having a little bit on issue, but he's back there to return the punch.
He doesn't get his hands on the guy, necessarily, the ball checks down with inside the five.
That's one of the coaching that they called gaffes that Shermer had in this one again.
I just you could beat that drum as long as you want, but this team is what it is, and this is probably the thing that we kind of closed out on.
The podcast is well on something that I'll dive into later tonight as we talk about these players and some of the guys were gonna look for in the upcoming Monday night matchup.
We don't have enough talent on the offensive line.
Right now, we don't have enough talent unnecessarily receiving corps behind some of our stars.
Shepherd finally comes back, and it's just great to see him healthy on the field.
We don't have enough players on the linebacking corps.
We have enough players in the secondary.
We don't have enough players, you know, special teams to make quality plays.
At times, we don't have enough creative minds on the offensive side of the coaching coaching spectrum, the defense, it has been decided.
There's been inconsistent.
You know, we're a mediocre of less than mediocre team.
This is what happens in this kind of season, and it goes down.
The line is not just a player, just the coaching staff, and it's also potentially the GM.
I also talked with Andy about this.
Saying that you know is you go in the offseason identified this group of players that you're going to say or the core.
Now you're talking about moving some guy's at the door and bringing in some new players as they've been doing over the last two and 1/2 years under Dave.
Gentlemen, the problem now is, though you brought in guys like veteran players in Ogle Tree to try to stabilize something.
I think that overall you'll take the result of what you got from him.
Overpriced, overpriced in terms of what you paid form would even turning on a salary.
But he has been a average linebacker for you and certainly has offered veteran presence around that unit.
And Tom Buffet has been a total disaster that Jonathan Stewart going back to the previous year.
Total disaster named Soldier is a miss.
And at the time that's something we also talked about after Hertz was you went out.
You wanted normal, and you want to upgrade the guard position on the other, getting Zeitler.
So it ends up working out, certainly.
But you wanted this guard you wanted to pay him.
He politely declined and went back to Carolina.
Then you pivoted and you overpaid for a left tackle that you felt you needed to locate this position with.
And you just wonder where could you have better spent that money? Um, the GM scenario is something that's gonna play out here is we look at some of these younger players over the last five games and then you do get into that big picture thing.
Would Mayor make any type of move in that regard? I don't know, is if you're going to sweep out the coaching staff, then you have to look at who hired the coaching staff.
And that pulls back at the feet of Dave Gettleman.
Close out by saying, I'll do a little bit more looking around the Internet here before we come back on later tonight.
There's an idea about, well, Ron Rivera be out in Carolina following this season? Even some could.
Jason Garrett depending on the result, Jerry Jones seems like he feels as though the coaching staff is not done enough to give their team some wins with the talent they had on the field.
So Jason Garrett could potentially be out there.
We have highlighted on a previous podcast about the idea of a Mike McCarthy coming back into the fold.
There's gonna be some options there from the coaching staff, and I think it now it comes down to Do you believe in, Ah, quote, re tread on somebody or something you think has done enough for other teams.
Where do we stand looking to stabilize this franchise? Are we looking to go young like Arizona did and think about just, you know, revamping ourselves going into the future.
That will be interesting to see what direction the Giants try to go.
Thio there's a part of me that does also head on air on the side of you may still see ya manager as your GM.
And you may see Patron, who is the head coach and better as the defensive coordinator.
You know, nothing may change going into next year potentially because gentlemen is still gonna be selling it on.
This is the process that we had to go through, and that's the thing that I'll close out on here.
And this is obviously we're gonna go more big picture.
I said that by and large, because these games don't mean as much.
Before I touched on the draft implications that we saw here from this weekend set of games, you know, get him in these last couple of years.
A lot of it is right.
You blundered before he gets there.
You blunder things with Eli Manning.
You don't have a good transition.
You get rid of McAdoo, then you try to do that.
Mia Copa with Eli Manning these last two years, the Giants organization has been selling a bad bill of goods to the fan base.
They've been telling you we're gonna be competitive when they know we're not.
Last year, you win five games, beating three backup quarterbacks in a handful of those winds, you're able to say that it was an improvement from three and 13 the year prior.
Now you see yourself sitting here to winds, with the only winnable games being Miami in Washington, potentially on this schedule over the last five games, you're not a good football team, and they've done these things of, like putting on some makeup here.
You know, putting makeup on a pig.
T make it look like we're moving in the right direction.
And if they have been able to squeak out a couple more wins in this season, they probably would have no to get away with it.
Six wins would have been enough to say progress is happening here, even five wins again.
And then having Daniel Jones coming along as the rookie quarterback would have been worth it once you made that transition to him.
But now, as it stands, offensive line is regressed.
the second Dairy has not improved to this point, even though you do potentially have talent there and then you're also talking about the players you've brought in and keep coming in and out.
This roster has had almost 90 95% turnover since Dave Gentleman has come in, which lets you know that when he took over, he looked at this roster and said, The talent isn't here.
We have a lot of moves to make, and these things don't happen overnight.
On the Bears report podcast that we did those fellas in Zak and Aaron.
They were saying How Listen, these things can turn around for you in a year they saw with Chicago going from a mediocre team, flipping over and winning 11 games now finding themselves muddling at 500 this season.
So you're Thio your two year things can pivot for you.
And right now the Giants have to be looking at that draft and realizing that the Redskins get a win.
You also see the Jets get a win.
So they pulled themselves further out of that hunting right now we're in that category for, you know, the Bangles are gonna get the number one.
I don't see them winning three games in the last five.
So you know number one is locked up.
They're gonna go quarterback more than likely Right now, we're in that battle for that number to pick 2 to 4.
Anywhere in there is probably where we're gonna land.
You're talking about getting you want to go with that stud transcendent talent.
The defensive line that has, you know, is gonna be raided out and is a higher prospect.
And then Clowney was coming out and she's young, or you talk up the left tackle and move on from there.
You know, the opportunity is gonna be here to make an enormous decision in this upcoming draft that can help to swing things.
You can plug in the new fresh left tackle there.
Then you can start to see things turned around, but ultimately looking Ah, touch back on this offensive line again looking at you know, soldier Hernandez, who struggled this year, how appeal has been a disaster.
Zeit Lor is a plus.
Members will be gone just because he's an older veteran player.
I don't see a reason to bring him back.
All of a sudden, you're talking about.
Is this fourth fists of the line to be replaced, and then even that scenario swinging Nate soldier around? You don't know what it's gonna add up for this team.
So at the end of the day, a very disappointing 150 yard performance from the passing game in the 19 to 14 loss say Quan Barkley doesn't look like himself out there.
Bright spot would be Darius Latent continues to look like he's a contributor and can be a solid two and at times can flash number one talent.
So I think you found a diamond in the rough there from that standpoint.
After that, though, this is just another bad loss of the Giants moved to two and nine and ugly season, and Chicago Bears get themselves at least a 500 maybe give themselves some hope here to begin.
You continue to play hard as they go through the last five games.
That'll wrap it up here for the midday Monday review mid morning Monday review here for the Giants podcast.
Ah, I'll come back in.
Like I said, I'm gonna touch back in and the second half of the Monday night game will be covering the Brooklyn Nets as they go into their matchup tonight, taking on the Cleveland Cavaliers coming off the wind at MSG against the Knicks.
So if you want to go over there, we got Nets threat here on SportsCastr.
You can check that out.
I'll come back in, though, following that game, which will wrap up around 99 30 so plenty of time to get in on the Monday night action start to give you some insights on players the Giants may take a look at in free agency like we did with the Colts and Houston game, and then we'll just carry through and move on through this week and try to continue to look at roster spots and see what we can do for, ah, deeper insights sitting to the Chicago big game action against the Giants yesterday.
Go ahead and head over to iTunes or the megaphone dot FM wherever you wherever you want to get the podcast, you can download ****, reviewing, subscribe to that action.
You can also head over to Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and follow us there at Avalon Giant podcast.
Appreciate any of the insights or questions or whatever you want to talk to us about.
By all means, throw your questions out.
Will probably posting up something on social media on Twitter regarding head coaching opportunities.
And who would you like to see brought in? We'll try to run through a couple of those options as the season moves along.
So you have some ideas about where you the fan base, wants to go as we look to an off season of more upheaval, potentially for the Giants.
Beyond that, I'm going to go ahead and get some tea, get some laws.
Anders tried to kill myself up here before tonight so I can come in here and do a little more college scouting and, ah, well, as the pro level scouting here with a Monday night matchup.
As always, I've been at a marble for the one giant podcast.
Thank you for joining in with us here in the mid morning.
We'll talk to you later on tonight.
Hopefully, must've insights and opportunities for the Giants to improve here as we muddle our way through an ugly season.
Now it's you and nine.
Looking at a top three.
Selection in the draft is probably the only silver lining we can have.
Nice again for joining us.
We'll catch up with the stuff